Mating a half brother to a half sister.

[NickC]

Not meaning to be argumentative, but what makes you say the gene pool in cockers is narrowing Judy? Some of the most successful dogs have a higher COI than a number of the springers, which haven't been line bred to recently, but is it actually narrowing - is the COI going up generation on generation, or is it fairly consistent?
To think that triallers breed without consideration to health is incorrect.. different viewpoints and values maybe..

[t jack]

Who are these "experts" you always hear of? I'm sick of hearing "according to the experts" etc etc not just in dogs but daily life

[madrags]

Well, after reading posts on a variety of topics on the forum, it seems to me that someone regarded as an expert by a person (or several people) is one who shares that (or those) individual(s) opinions. Anyone else is decried as not knowing their arse from their elbow.

[arwesa]

I wonder how many people who are quick to argue against genetic health have read up on it....

At least some responses are willing to admit they dont really understand it and to those the above comment doesnt apply.

its proven that the more you inbreed the more issues you create...from reduced litters through to genetic mutations that though they wont necessarily cause a pup to be affected (although it is feasible if the inbreeding is too high) they can create genes which are inherited, end up on two sides of a pedigree and bang suddenly a pup has an issue.

where do you think the current problems that are inherited and testable came from? .... did an evil pixie suddenly create the inherited disease?

ALL gene pools for ALL breeds are over time reducing. how fast that happens is determined by how well breeding is managed to maintain diversity...thats what the COI is about.

When I refered to 'genetic health' I mean a dog thats got a lower COI will have proportionately less inbreeding, so proportionately less chances of of genetic issues being created or as yet unmapped problems manifesting.. remembering you need two copies of a problem gene to create an affected dog.

If you read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding it provides a good starter.


Im not in any way involved in kennel club mateselect, for those who know me I am not a KC fan at all, infact the opposite. however, they are finally taking some positive steps, mateselect is one of them, its a small step and not nearly enough, but hopefully over time they will give more information.

Im also not a genetic expert, however Im also not a bigot.I have taken the time to read up on the situation, read studies, and research the information that is out there and readily available IF you can be bothered.....but I guess its easier to argue from ignorance against someone who tries to be even handed and wants to learn...


oh and here's another useful read http://www.flockguard.org/breeding_genetics_bragg.htm

I dont hide behind false names on a forum and snipe, and I stand up for what I believe is best for our breed and working dogs as a whole. I contribute to discussions in a way that I hope benefits others..... someone on here was recently decrying a situation regarding another poster mentioning a cocker sire that has been marked as a carrier of a yet to be determined issue by an international breed club and saying that person should be ashamed of themselves and should apologise....I could say the same of those who irresponsibly decry simple inbreeding facts and claim its all nonsense.... being a bigot is no excuse.

I ask you would you breed a mother to a son if the rest of the pedigree was not overlapping.....? that would give a COI of 25%

I then ask you whats the difference between that and a dog with an inbreeding COI of 25%....?

genetically both are as bad as each other...'breeders' of top dogs wouldnt do the first so why is the second ok?

next someone will argue the world is flat beacuse you can see the edge in the distance...

[scot-ish]

with regards to the mother-son. people wouldnt breed that, because its proven in life to give problems, as to me that is to close, but breeding two dogs, because they share the same grandfather and gt gt grandfather on the same side.

if that was such a problem, why is it legal to marry your cousin, and have a family, and then they do the same? as this would throw a high COI. surely if that was throwing out such big problems, then in the human race, it would be against the law, after all, alot fo experts must have studied it, to say it was legal to do so.

[Rothievale]

I am a true believer in line breeding, if you speak to any breed specialist, it is the only way to get the best of the best. It is done with horses, pigs, cows etc etc. BUT you have to know your lines inside out, know all the pros and cons, health wise and temperament wise, not just the two animals in question. Some of the best dogs are very closely bred, for example Clanicker Mick, Openshaw's/Martin Ashman's most recent superstar, he is a cracking dog who I believe is also producing cracking offspring. I would research the lines of the two dogs in depth and then make a decision. If you want to PM me the KC names of the two dogs then I will look them up on Lochindorb and see what I think and give you my input for what it's worth.

Helen

[Hales Smut]

I don't have much time, but in short what it's all about. I try later this week, give more detailed my idea's.
- Linebreeding/Inbreeding does NOT create dogs with bad health. It simply shows what is hidden in the genes. By outcrossing it stays hidden, but it isn't gone. By inbreeding it allows you to see what is no longer hidden and do something about it. This means culling. Yes, if you want to progress you have to look at dogs as tools and cull what isn't O.K.
Something what isn't right, is wrong = SIMPLE.
- Look at the most succesfull breeders. The O'Varas , Laverack with his setters , Robert Whele with his pointers. All by strong and severe linebreeding and this in the first 3 generations. Linebreeding has to be done in the first 3 generations and close, very close. If you do this you get pedigrees like the bridevalley's . 7/8 times the same bitch in the first 5 generations. Lawton Evans was linebreeding closely. Read Wing and Shot by R. Whele. Good chapter on breeding. Look at the pedigrees in Laverack's book. You will be surprised.
- In one of the posts I read a COI of 12.5 or 1 out of 8 possibility to get a dog like the one with this COI of 12.5 . Very low isn't it.
- We all know that in breeding 1+1 isn't alway 2. reason : outcrossing. Only by strong and severe linebreeding over 5/6/7 generations you know what pups you will get and at that moment 1 + 1 = 2 .
- Kelco : Gorsty Gilpin was a great dog, at least a good sire. My first time in Ireland the dogs that impressed me most where all by Gilpin. Gilpin is out of that strong litter Druid X Gruag. Gilpin , Gilda, Griselda, Guss , all above average. I did everything to get a pup in these lines but had no luck.
Anahoe Dougie of Drumross / Art McRory was a great dog, as was Anahoe Dusty, Blaze Rose of Clare, and many others.

[madrags]

if that was such a problem, why is it legal to marry your cousin, and have a family, and then they do the same? as this would throw a high COI. surely if that was throwing out such big problems, then in the human race, it would be against the law, after all, alot fo experts must have studied it, to say it was legal to do so.

Might be legal, but certainly not problem free.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/hay- ... eding.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... rried.html

[t jack]

if that was such a problem, why is it legal to marry your cousin, and have a family, and then they do the same? as this would throw a high COI. surely if that was throwing out such big problems, then in the human race, it would be against the law, after all, alot fo experts must have studied it, to say it was legal to do so.

Might be legal, but certainly not problem free.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/hay- ... eding.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... rried.html

interesting reading in the first link, particulary about the royals, with Charles and Diana both able to trace their parentage back to edward the 1st, i guess Kate was an outcross??

[arwesa]

I am a true believer in line breeding, if you speak to any breed specialist, it is the only way to get the best of the best.

Helen, Who would you say is the best stud dog of the last 15 years? by volume you'd have to say Art, yet he was not a close linebred dog. he was bred from lines /dogs the breeder thought were the best. Clanicker mick is 19% inbred, Art was 5%.... I know you've just used Laddie...He's about 5%, and on the whole jeremy's dogs tend to be low COIs. I agree with the principle of careful line breeding to try and replicate good points, but surely that can be done and still maintain diversity with outcrosses as others seem to have..



I think saying every good dog with a High COI is justification for ignoring inbreeding as some do is down right irresponsible.