irish-english springers

[spanielful]

After watching the video clips and looking at the original post I am intrigued to know how bad the thirty dogs prior to the two we see working really were! I think the fact the dog missed the bird was down to poor handling rather than scent conditions and by that I mean the amount of missed ground was criminal when out rough shooting. There could have been more birds tucked in all that cover on a cold day. That, to me was down to the handler unable to keep his dogs in a hunting pattern, so is he blaming the quality of the current dogs available or the fact he clearly can't handle a spaniel properly?
The dogs look half decent just out of control. I don't like knocking trials. They are the closest thing to what spaniels were bred for. They weren't bred to go on a driven shoot. A half decent trial dog would undoubtedly produce more game for the bag than these two dogs working at the same time.
30 dogs through his hands. I can see why.

If what you mean by a hunting pattern is a dog quartering left to right polishing my wellies that wouldn't be much good in the sort of country I hunt,as regards handling,my dogs are allowed to use their own initiative with the minimum of handling,something absent in the dog trained for trialling ..To imply that I lied when I said that scenting conditions weren't good is offensive at best.To suggest that trials are the closest thing to what spaniels were bred for is patently not true;trials are a contrived affair far from representative of a roughshooting day as I know it .Thank you for your contribution.Heres a tip for you ,come to Ireland and experience some real hunting with dogs in a real setting,not a contrived artificial 20 minutes.

[eastie]

It's interesting that the people who criticise field trial dogs are always the ones who can't train to that standard. If you're out rough shooting who in their right mind would prefer game getting up out of shooting range opposed to game getting up 10 yards away. If I'm rough shooting with others I'll always avoid the boys with poorly trained spaniels, they will balls it up somewhere...

[spanielful]

It's interesting that the people who criticise field trial dogs are always the ones who can't train to that standard. If you're out rough shooting who in their right mind would prefer game getting up out of shooting range opposed to game getting up 10 yards away. If I'm rough shooting with others I'll always avoid the boys with poorly trained spaniels, they will balls it up somewhere...

I'm quite sure I could train a dog to trial standard, the point is I don't want a dog trained to trial standard,constantly looking for instruction, with the initiative trained out of it.
admittedly game is sometimes risen out of range,but I don't want to kill everything, and am happy to allow the dogs to use their natural initiative even if this means they will sometimes flush a bird out of range.Poorly trained maybe
when compared to the trial dog,but I wouldn't want it any other way.Much rather see them behave naturally as opposed to robotically.

[Naj]

It's interesting that the people who criticise field trial dogs are always the ones who can't train to that standard. If you're out rough shooting who in their right mind would prefer game getting up out of shooting range opposed to game getting up 10 yards away. If I'm rough shooting with others I'll always avoid the boys with poorly trained spaniels, they will balls it up somewhere...

I think the problem, as you describe it, lies with handlers who try to train to field trial standard but have failed miserably & the dogs have got out of hand. I guess that you could say that a little bit of training is a dangerous thing. I used to do a lot of roughshooting back in the 70s & 80s on un-keepered ground, very much as you see with our Irish friends, & was considered a bit eccentric to have steady dogs that worked to a pattern. Training wasn't such a fad in those days & roughshooting more accessible so it was common practice that you incorporated your dogs/pups into your shooting forays from an indecently young age & simply expected them to learn on the job with the minimum of training, which they did. This isn't as daft as it sounds, for it is quite common for American hunters to be shooting over a pointing breed by 6 months of age. What happens when you shoot over a dog from a young age is that it quickly learns a bit of gun sense & naturally learns to stick with the guns rather than pull on way out of shot, which would ultimately be unproductive for it. It might not produce textbook patterns or field trial performance but it does work because, back in the day, dogs raised like this weren't constantly pulling on way out of shot. It all worked perplexingly well & if the handler couldn't shoot a bird that his dog had flushed then it was generally within range of one of the other guns, & we rarely missed a bird because it had been pushed up out of range. It was good for my dog's steadiness, because they rarely got the chance of a retrieve. If you look at the vids, the dogs do hold to the guns surprisingly well & with very little in the way of commands. I think this is perhaps where the notion that a well bred dog should virtually train itself comes from. In contrast, when you start a formal training programme & introduction to shooting at an older age, as you would with traditional training, and the young dog misses this critical connection between game, handler & gun, then should the training subsequently break down the dog invariably becomes self-employed & more of a liability than if it had been taught more so on-the-job.

I offer this as an observation & not as a criticism of trials or trials dogs, because I've always trained my own spaniels to what would be considered as field trial standard. And I've no idea how spanielful trains his own dogs but what is clear from this thread is that everyone has their own idea of what a god dog is & how it should work, & what suits one won't necessarily suit another. And long may that be so.

Naj

Naj

[spanielful]

It's interesting that the people who criticise field trial dogs are always the ones who can't train to that standard. If you're out rough shooting who in their right mind would prefer game getting up out of shooting range opposed to game getting up 10 yards away. If I'm rough shooting with others I'll always avoid the boys with poorly trained spaniels, they will balls it up somewhere...

I think the problem, as you describe it, lies with handlers who try to train to field trial standard but have failed miserably & the dogs have got out of hand. I guess that you could say that a little bit of training is a dangerous thing. I used to do a lot of roughshooting back in the 70s & 80s on un-keepered ground, very much as you see with our Irish friends, & was considered a bit eccentric to have steady dogs that worked to a pattern. Training wasn't such a fad in those days & roughshooting more accessible so it was common practice that you incorporated your dogs/pups into your shooting forays from an indecently young age & simply expected them to learn on the job with the minimum of training, which they did. This isn't as daft as it sounds, for it is quite common for American hunters to be shooting over a pointing breed by 6 months of age. What happens when you shoot over a dog from a young age is that it quickly learns a bit of gun sense & naturally learns to stick with the guns rather than pull on way out of shot, which would ultimately be unproductive for it. It might not produce textbook patterns or field trial performance but it does work because, back in the day, dogs raised like this weren't constantly pulling on way out of shot. It all worked perplexingly well & if the handler couldn't shoot a bird that his dog had flushed then it was generally within range of one of the other guns, & we rarely missed a bird because it had been pushed up out of range. It was good for my dog's steadiness, because they rarely got the chance of a retrieve. If you look at the vids, the dogs do hold to the guns surprisingly well & with very little in the way of commands. I think this is perhaps where the notion that a well bred dog should virtually train itself comes from. In contrast, when you start a formal training programme & introduction to shooting at an older age, as you would with traditional training, and the young dog misses this critical connection between game, handler & gun, then should the training subsequently break down the dog invariably becomes self-employed & more of a liability than if it had been taught more so on-the-job.

I offer this as an observation & not as a criticism of trials or trials dogs, because I've always trained my own spaniels to what would be considered as field trial standard. And I've no idea how spanielful trains his own dogs but what is clear from this thread is that everyone has their own idea of what a god dog is & how it should work, & what suits one won't necessarily suit another. And long may that be so.

Naj

Naj

Of all the contributors on this subject so far it appears that you NAJ are the only one that fully understands the central point.

[Rab1981]

Think naj hit the nail on the head, spanielfuls dog seem to being doing exactly what he wants them to do in the vids and yes a trial dog may go like clappers in tight pattern but it wouldnt do it all day like spanielful uses his dog as they seem to have learned to pace themselves out and to be fair they are working away with very little commands a bit out of range at times yes but hey ho they look extremely happy to me and spanielful sounds happy with them so fair doos, not my cup of tea but each to thier own .....

[spanielful]

Think naj hit the nail on the head, spanielfuls dog seem to being doing exactly what he wants them to do in the vids and yes a trial dog may go like clappers in tight pattern but it wouldnt do it all day like spanielful uses his dog as they seem to have learned to pace themselves out and to be fair they are working away with very little commands a bit out of range at times yes but hey ho they look extremely happy to me and spanielful sounds happy with them so fair doos, not my cup of tea but each to thier own .....

You made a very important point about stamina,we tend to hunt for long periods,sometimes all day.The dog that goes like the clappers in a tight pattern wouldn't last,and a dog that needs constant commands and instruction is not favoured.

[Casper]

I think you have misunderstood the difference between a tight pattern and ground treatment. If there is an abundance of game on a commercial shoot, you would favour a close working dog to maintain control in high volumes of game. If you are rough shooting you want a dog to cover ground well but more importantly, leave no opportunities to chance. Every stick pile and holly bush should be investigated, no blade of grass left unturned. That is a combination of training, handling and natural ability.
Many keepers have the notion that dogs are trained on the job and it works remarkably well for some. It's been said time and time again, Trial dogs are conditioned to sprint not run a marathon. A simple change to training regime and work patterns combined with diet would see them work for a few hours straight. At least they would have the enthusiasm to do it.
Then there is the argument about different trial lines. Successful dogs come in all shapes and sizes. Mine are all built like powerhouses with tremendous athletic bodies. They are all on the same lines as I've found a line I like.
If I were you I'd do more research before you go through the next 30 dogs.
Bill

[Rab1981]

Like i said each to thier own as long as your happy with what they are doing then all well and good, believe me ive seen far worse spaniels lol best of luck to you when the season starts again, gun in hand and a spaniel hunting in front wither it be trialing standerd or not can think of far worse things to be doing....

[spanielful]

I think you have misunderstood the difference between a tight pattern and ground treatment. If there is an abundance of game on a commercial shoot, you would favour a close working dog to maintain control in high volumes of game. If you are rough shooting you want a dog to cover ground well but more importantly, leave no opportunities to chance. Every stick pile and holly bush should be investigated, no blade of grass left unturned. That is a combination of training, handling and natural ability.
Many keepers have the notion that dogs are trained on the job and it works remarkably well for some. It's been said time and time again, Trial dogs are conditioned to sprint not run a marathon. A simple change to training regime and work patterns combined with diet would see them work for a few hours straight. At least they would have the enthusiasm to do it.
Then there is the argument about different trial lines. Successful dogs come in all shapes and sizes. Mine are all built like powerhouses with tremendous athletic bodies. They are all on the same lines as I've found a line I like.
If I were you I'd do more research before you go through the next 30 dogs.
Bill

I have never hunted on a commercial shoot,all my hunting is done on farmland where game is scarce and dogs have to hunt sometimes for long periods without meeting game.As you point out every bush and stick pile should be investigated,in an ideal world and with the perfect dog this could be achieved,but I have yet to encounter the perfect dog.You suggest that a change of diet and training would turn a typical trialling dog into a dog that would suit my purposes,been there, done that, don't work[incidentally have you tried what you are suggesting?].As regards your assumption that I haven't done my research you are wrong by a country mile.