Crufts 'gundogs'

[trekmoor]

Like James and others, I have trained members of non-gundog breeds to retrieve. It can be done and certainly it can be done well enough to give enough time for a photograph to be taken of a dog with something in it's mouth. I think a gundog can fairly be called a gundog when it can pass on strong gundog traits ....such as a love of retrieving to it's puppies along with other other traits such as not being gun shy, not being hard mouthed and not whining or barking it's head off when it gets a bit excited.

There are many dogs of many breeds that can make some sort of a job of being a gundog at a lower powered level than the "real thing" but can it pass on it's taught abilities to it's pups ? Would the owners of the pups be willing and able to spend months just to get their pups to trot over a field enough to say the pups hunt or spend months just to train the most basic of retrieves that a work bred pup would do possibly with no training at all ?

Gundog pups are born with "it" already in their heads , non-gundog pups need a lot of training to put "it" into their heads.

I too have heard owners of border collies claim their dogs would easily make a gundog and this is true but only to a limited extent. They forget about things like whining, hard mouth, natural retrieve ability and willingness to face heavy, nasty cover. I have trained a border collie I owned as a gundog and he was pretty good at it but he was also the only dog I have ever owned to whom I had to train F.F. in order to get him to retrieve. Nowadays I'd probably have clicker trained the retrieve but that too is not a "natural" retrieve.

Wullie

[Springfield Pointers]

For me the thing about field trials is that dogs can win trials just by being well drilled and having good manners. Bird finding ability and drive can be secondary. As long as the dog behaves and does not get eliminated it can get through on vaguely acceptable hunting. A lot of the time I find results don't do the dogs justice. But an eliminating fault is an eliminating fault. A lot of good working genetics gets lost because the silverware hasn't been won. Sometimes mediocritywins. Trialling does have a place though but I don't like to use it as my yardstick when looking for a good dog.

[trekmoor]

S.P., isn't that more of a judging fault than a dog fault ? I know what you mean about trials and it is the case that sometimes the really hard going dogs get eliminated leaving the plodders still competing. I think it is then up to the judges to decide whether or not a less keen but capable dog should be awarded 1st, 2nd or 3rd place or to just give it a C.o.M. Just because only one dog is left in a trial does not mean the judges have to give it 1st place. ...... Not sure what this has to do with Crufts Gundogs but threads do have a tendency to stray .

Wullie

[Naj]

Aren't judges & trials inextricably inter-linked?

Naj

[Springfield Pointers]

S.P., isn't that more of a judging fault than a dog fault ? I know what you mean about trials and it is the case that sometimes the really hard going dogs get eliminated leaving the plodders still competing. I think it is then up to the judges to decide whether or not a less keen but capable dog should be awarded 1st, 2nd or 3rd place or to just give it a C.o.M. Just because only one dog is left in a trial does not mean the judges have to give it 1st place. ...... Not sure what this has to do with Crufts Gundogs but threads do have a tendency to stray .

Wullie

Yes absolutely. Judging panels differ - sometimes enormously. But it is most definitely a judging issue. Places do not have to awarded, quite right, and although manners must be a huge factor, it's sad to see great dogs missing out due to indiscretions. The thread has morphed, it was bound to happen

We ran an invitational (experimental) trial last year where all dogs got time in front of the judges and there was no elimination. We tried a points system, where we added or deducted points based on a number of factors. We invited exiting dogs that we wanted to see work and the emphasis was on ability. Rounds were an hour each and we ran 20 dogs in two groups over 5 days on wild partridge. Was very interesting.

[trekmoor]

We invited exiting dogs that we wanted to see work

I've had a few "exiting" dogs myself ! They exited right off the moor !
Sorry S.P. I make plenty of spelling mistakes myself but I just couldn't stop myself laughing at that one !

Wullie

[Springfield Pointers]

Touché. Phone taking charge of my grammar again, it can't be the beers I've consumed watching the Sharks play the Reds...

[Tarimoor]

If you enjoy your dogs, which you clearly do, then does it really matter what others think. If your ambition is to produce a dog that will work & show then that's as fine an ambition as any other, especially if you pull it off. We all have different ideas on what a 'proper' working dog is & does. Many 'ordinary' shooting/beating/pickers-up get sniffy about trial dogs, & vice-versa. And how many use spaniels solely for picking-up & retrievers solely for beating. You've no need to be apologetic to me over your choice of breeding or what you choose to do with your dogs. If I chose to shoot over a pack of Yorkshire terriers I wouldn't give a damn what anyone else thought of it, or me. It's supposed to be fun.

Naj

Very much true, I just find it disappointing that because a dog isn't fully trained at 12 months of age, and isn't ever going to field trial, is dismissed as being *useless* by some. But then I suppose the opposite is true, and dogs with b*gga all ability are praised as the top examples of their breed simply on looks, and those looks aren't to everyone's taste at all.

Like James and others, I have trained members of non-gundog breeds to retrieve. It can be done and certainly it can be done well enough to give enough time for a photograph to be taken of a dog with something in it's mouth. I think a gundog can fairly be called a gundog when it can pass on strong gundog traits ....such as a love of retrieving to it's puppies along with other other traits such as not being gun shy, not being hard mouthed and not whining or barking it's head off when it gets a bit excited.

There are many dogs of many breeds that can make some sort of a job of being a gundog at a lower powered level than the "real thing" but can it pass on it's taught abilities to it's pups ? Would the owners of the pups be willing and able to spend months just to get their pups to trot over a field enough to say the pups hunt or spend months just to train the most basic of retrieves that a work bred pup would do possibly with no training at all ?

Gundog pups are born with "it" already in their heads , non-gundog pups need a lot of training to put "it" into their heads.

I too have heard owners of border collies claim their dogs would easily make a gundog and this is true but only to a limited extent. They forget about things like whining, hard mouth, natural retrieve ability and willingness to face heavy, nasty cover. I have trained a border collie I owned as a gundog and he was pretty good at it but he was also the only dog I have ever owned to whom I had to train F.F. in order to get him to retrieve. Nowadays I'd probably have clicker trained the retrieve but that too is not a "natural" retrieve.

Wullie

These dogs were trained to be soft mouthed, and go through and over anything, including track an individual over a hard surface through crowds, and take redirections without being able to see the handler. The articles they retrieved from the search square would have been a mixture of objects, some of which would easily have shown any marks from a hard mouthed dog. One of the most stunning dogs I saw was a GSP, phenomenal tracking dog!

[LJR]

Like James and others, I have trained members of non-gundog breeds to retrieve. It can be done and certainly it can be done well enough to give enough time for a photograph to be taken of a dog with something in it's mouth. I think a gundog can fairly be called a gundog when it can pass on strong gundog traits ....such as a love of retrieving to it's puppies along with other other traits such as not being gun shy, not being hard mouthed and not whining or barking it's head off when it gets a bit excited.

There are many dogs of many breeds that can make some sort of a job of being a gundog at a lower powered level than the "real thing" but can it pass on it's taught abilities to it's pups ? Would the owners of the pups be willing and able to spend months just to get their pups to trot over a field enough to say the pups hunt or spend months just to train the most basic of retrieves that a work bred pup would do possibly with no training at all ?

Gundog pups are born with "it" already in their heads , non-gundog pups need a lot of training to put "it" into their heads.

I too have heard owners of border collies claim their dogs would easily make a gundog and this is true but only to a limited extent. They forget about things like whining, hard mouth, natural retrieve ability and willingness to face heavy, nasty cover. I have trained a border collie I owned as a gundog and he was pretty good at it but he was also the only dog I have ever owned to whom I had to train F.F. in order to get him to retrieve. Nowadays I'd probably have clicker trained the retrieve but that too is not a "natural" retrieve.

Wullie

What a brilliant post - it is the first time I have read such a good description of a true gundog!

[Naj]

I would have thought that, by definition, a 'gundog' would first & foremost have to be a member of one of the gundog breeds before it could be considered to be a recognised 'gundog', and only then would you look at whether it could pass on desirable traits. There are plenty of examples of individuals from the mainstream working gundog breeds (some FTW & FTCh) that have developed mouth & noise problems & that have proven capable of passing these faults on to their offspring but you still class them as 'gundogs', even so.

Naj