Dropping bird

[Naj]

So, Naj, are you saying that all acquired behaviours are trained in rather than the dog deciding to do its own thing, use its brain for its own ends?

Well, so far, Ips has had one piece of advice as to how to cure it, from Chrokeva (sp?!) and my sympathies in 9 pages, apart from being told its his fault.
By heck you lot are so helpful it hurts!
If its any consolation, Ips, I use the same method as Chrokeva. A quick "oi! What d'ya think y'doin" seemed to work on those occasions when I wasn't having a quiet snigger at the old girl's inventiveness, sorry, learned behaviour.

Yes, everybody has good and bad days out picking up and we've all got tales to tell about how much worse some of the others are! Its learned behaviour of course, they've learned they have no idea re how to fix issues!

A dog is continually cueing off of it’s environment and the resultant behaviours have a function, from the dog’s perspective. So a dog is using its brain to its own ends whatever it might be doing, based upon previous learning history. When it’s owner is involved then they become part of the dog’s environment and as such can obviously be an influence on behaviour. I’m sitting here with a dog on my lap (it’ll never make a gundog ) and the other lounging on the floor at my feet. I didn’t command that and you could say it was an example of my dogs doing their own thing. But I put a lot of effort in getting them to relax in the home when I’m relaxing simply through developing routines and rituals so I’d consider that they were simply cueing off my behaviour. When they were younger they’d jump up and follow me if I got up but their learning history has moved on and now they might wait to see if it was worth it for them to get up and follow me, all cued off of my behaviour.

Ips answered his own question on this but jumped to the wrong conclusions and I just pointed that out. He’s effectively trained a ritual where the dog catches his eye when it hears his turn command so if it isn’t able to, because he forgets to look or whatever, then Eze sometimes responds with a different behaviour. As Newf pointed out this is due to Ips’ inconsistency. And we all do stuff like this, even me.

Like a good trainer Ips also sorted out the retrieving issue himself.

Naj

[Springfield Pointers]

Ips, wouldn't listen anyway. Haven't you picked up already that Ian, goes by feel.

It's a learned behaviour... he learned it all here.

[ips]

Ips, wouldn't listen anyway. Haven't you picked up already that Ian, goes by feel.

It's a learned behaviour... he learned it all here.

[westcountry]

Way beyond me!

[Judy]

Ips answered his own question on this but jumped to the wrong conclusions and I just pointed that out. He’s effectively trained a ritual where the dog catches his eye when it hears his turn command so if it isn’t able to, because he forgets to look or whatever, then Eze sometimes responds with a different behaviour. As Newf pointed out this is due to Ips’ inconsistency. And we all do stuff like this, even me.

Like a good trainer Ips also sorted out the retrieving issue himself.

Naj

So are you suggesting Ips should never take his eyes off the dog in case it looks at him? Surely if a dog has been trained to turn to a whistle it should turn? Unless you are working more than one dog at time then its a whole different ball game.

He may well have but this is a Gundog Training Forum and as such we should be putting into print any methods which have worked for us with different dogs whenever anyone asks a question re an issue. Should we not? Then others in a similar boat can learn and use what suits them best.

[newf]

I wouldn't tolerate sloppy retrieving if the dog was once good at delivery to hand.

I am taking steps to rectify and so far so good. I cannot pin point when it started but i am confident that i can sort it. Been out for a walk about this afternoon, one pheasant for two shots bird delivered to hand no drop but used constant whistle to be sure

This is in print. It could fix the problem but only time will tell. My thinking: If the recall whistle and or voice is too nagging or threatening then one could actually be slowing up the dog. Personally, I would be quiet and happy about the dog returning and carrying; scold the dog on the drop and place it back in the dog's mouth and back away, happy again. The dog needs to see the contrast and to decide the options, until the delivery is reliable. Dogs do think and can learn from being shown.

PS. Remember now, eze already knows the delivery, she's a mature dog.

[CockerCanuck]

OK so this is the way I think of this stuff. We come into our partnership with a dog with an "agenda" of how we want them to perform and behave. The dog does not really have an agenda (that would suggest forward thinking) however they do have a bunch of inborn instincts, tendencies and preferences. In well bred dogs most of these line up with our "agenda". For them training becomes a pretty simple matter of clearing up the rough edges where their instincts/traits don't quite line up with our agenda. Those contrary instincts and traits don't ever really go away but the dog learns the relationship goes better when they bend to our agenda and a good partnership develops.

It is no surprize to me that occasionally dogs test to see if the way they would like to do things might now be acceptable. If we are not consistent in our standards, or not paying attention at all, they will happily go back to the way their instinct and traits lead them. I beleive this is what was going on with Ips's Eze and my Cocker Fergal. Once we both just got a bit more diligent about paying attention and consistently communicated our expectation both dog partners again bent to our will and delivered to hand. (which I think aligns with Chrokeva's wise advice). It really does not feel very complex to me.

[Naj]

I agree, it isn’t complex, just train what you want, be consistent and give clear communication. And if your dog only does stuff when it feels that you’re concentrating on it and it has to or else, and it’s learnt that when you’re not concentrating on it then it can do it’s own thing then that’s down to inconsistency on your part. I don’t believe it’s anything to do with the dog testing you. If you use corrections then you’ve simply been inconsistent in correcting unwanted behaviours and only notice when you realise a problem has developed.

[ips]

OK so this is the way I think of this stuff. We come into our partnership with a dog with an "agenda" of how we want them to perform and behave. The dog does not really have an agenda (that would suggest forward thinking) however they do have a bunch of inborn instincts, tendencies and preferences. In well bred dogs most of these line up with our "agenda". For them training becomes a pretty simple matter of clearing up the rough edges where their instincts/traits don't quite line up with our agenda. Those contrary instincts and traits don't ever really go away but the dog learns the relationship goes better when they bend to our agenda and a good partnership develops.

It is no surprize to me that occasionally dogs test to see if the way they would like to do things might now be acceptable. If we are not consistent in our standards, or not paying attention at all, they will happily go back to the way their instinct and traits lead them. I beleive this is what was going on with Ips's Eze and my Cocker Fergal. Once we both just got a bit more diligent about paying attention and consistently communicated our expectation both dog partners again bent to our will and delivered to hand. (which I think aligns with Chrokeva's wise advice). It really does not feel very complex to me.

This is EXACTLY how i have always looked on it

[munstyman]

He may well have but this is a Gundog Training Forum and as such we should be putting into print any methods which have worked for us with different dogs whenever anyone asks a question re an issue. Should we not? Then others in a similar boat can learn and use what suits them best.

But how often do we get given a problem without all the relevant detail, and/or perhaps from the wrong perspective? Then you get a mix of solutions which are all different as each of us will see a different cause to the problem.... then you get confusing and often contradicting advise...which the in experienced may have trouble syphoning through ips has probably got use to this now so I don't class him as being one of the inexperienced
I missed the video, so whilst I had several theories, some have been covered, any could be right, and only in Naj's latest post has the suggestion which I feel probably fits in with the cause, has been considered.
From my experience, the dreaded hand held `camera' creates a different condition from the dogs perspective. I quickly found that my dogs behaved differently when I had either my cameras or phone out and in my hand. I did not bother too much analysing the why though just saw that I had to acclimatise them to the tool like any other change to get that `consistency' back.
Personally I like having dogs that can think through solutions for themselves, and now actively encourage it with my young pups. It will have a draw back sometimes when they go off script when I would prefer they didn't But if what they tried did not work for me I just up the reward for `my way'
On another issue, which may or may not be relevant . I can also be as guilty as the next man for not showing my `appreciation' to the dog for its work, once it becomes `work'. Who's to say how the dog, or some dogs see this? But given all the time we spend training and giving encouragement to them for their efforts. For it not to be present, is it not a cue for the dog to try something different to win it back? ( I'm thinking of reward based training, correction based you just up the correction as we know )