Gundog Training Forum

While trying to explain the pros and cons of clicker use on another gundog forum a thought occurred to me. I have never managed to train a naturally hard mouthed dog to be soft mouthed. Could something along the following lines perhaps work ?

The clicker is "primed" and it and the dog are ready to "go." Using a clicker would it be possible to use toys that "squeak" easily to help make a dog hold gently ? Basically ....if the toy squeaked ...no click and no treat ....if the toy did not squeak .... click and treat. Could something be done along those lines ?

If so how would that good result be transferred to game ?

Wullie

No idea.

But if the dog isn't given the opportunity to earn regular rewards then you can't shape anything effectively, so such an exercise may become pointless with a dog that enjoys squeaking the toy, which may, in any case, be a self-rewarding behaviour that is greater than the reward that you offer. And as you know, just because a dog squeaks a toy or bites hard on a dummy it doesn't mean that it will be hard mouthed on game, and vice versa. You may be better developing a soft hold on your hand & then putting it on cue, or shaping it to hold a dummy passively - without chewing, mouthing or rolling it etc. After saying that, I don't believe that clicker training is capable of curing a dog with hard mouth, or anything else that is intrinsic to the dog's nature, like whining or giving tongue while hunting. Dogs generally bite game either on first contact, because, for whatever reason, their intention is to bite, or from anxiety as they approach the handler. I think that both are beyond the realm of being cured by clicker training.

Naj

I think it could work but would depend whether the dog finds the squeak or the reward more attractive. It would also be dependant on the dog working out the connection between squeak = no reward and no squeak = reward.
And whether the dog would be able to translate this to game I'm not sure.
However, my attitude would be, if the dog is already hard mouthed, nothing to lose by trying.

Obedience trainers do use clickers to stop dogs mouthing the retrieve dumbell. Perhaps look at some methods for that. But I have my doubts....it's better avoided through correct training from the off and good breeding isn't it?

A friend of mine has used clicker training to teach her dog to pick up a really squeaky spacehopper toy with out it making a noise

it is possible, but I don't think I'd use a squeaky toy to start off with as the dog is likely to reward itself by squeaking the toy (if that is what floats it's boat). I tend to start dogs off on the cardboard tube out of toilet rolls and stuff them with newspaper (you could put some crinkly paper in there so that you can hear the dog chomp or just watch the jaws) or perhaps use a plastic bottle. Must admit, my dog that is hard on dummies (he punctures them) appears to be very gentle on game, although he has so far only been on cold game (with him it is a stress thing - taken me ages to undo the poor training/habits he got into as a pup in his previous home)

I agree with the above, yes you can train a dog to alter its hold but I too would not use a squeaky toy.

Ther reason I would not use a squeaky toy is the behaviour that you wish to eliminate is already happening ie it takes x amount of pressure before the squeak is activated, by which time you are too late to reinforce very gentle holding, so I would use a plastic bottle which is VERY noisy the moment any pressure is put on it at all.

Thanks, I accept that a plastic bottle would be a better option. Over the years I have read and heard of many anti-hard mouth training "methods." Some of them I would not inflict on a scabby rat never mind a dog ! I have yet to find even one way of training a naturally hard mouthed dog not to squeeze game however. I know hard mouth can be caused by handler error or even by happenstance but I also believe some dogs are simply born with much more "squeeze" in them than others.
I doubt if anyone will ever manage to "cure" that kind of dog ....not when it is working on fresh shot game.

Wullie

I agree. And to those who have posted to say they think it possible , we can all think what might or might not be possible, but has any of you actually succeeded in clicker training a (proven on game) hard mouthed dog to be soft, or know of anyone else who has done so?

Naj

Naj wrote:I agree. And to those who have posted to say they think it possible , we can all think what might or might not be possible, but has any of you actually succeeded in clicker training a (proven on game) hard mouthed dog to be soft, or know of anyone else who has done so?

Naj

I posted that I think it could be done. No, I haven't clicker trained a hard mouthed dog to be soft, and no, I don't know of anyone who has done it.