3 way split?

[Bryn]

OK following on from the 'how much picking up' thread and from what I saw at Drumlanrig....

Is there a possibility that Gundog breeds could split into 3 sub sections - with working dogs splitting into trial and everyday beating/picking up dogs.

I may have totally the wrong impression but ing back to the springer championships I saw dogs on the lead for a couple of hours to be let off for maybe 10-20mins, during their trial they were rushing around like maniacs looking very busy describing pretty patterns as directed by the handlers, maybe 2 birds got up and to be blasted at most 20yds and retrieved. I wasn't convinced that the dogs were actually flushing the birds as they tended to get up not far from the line of guns handlers and judges, at least as many were flushed by the spectators following on behind.

Personally, and I'm probably alone in this, I want a dog that uses its natural ability to scent and flush every bird/rabbit within range without constant whistling and gesturing from me, then bringing the game back to me. It needs to have intelligence to work on its own initiative and stamina to work at least half a day depending on terrain and bag. As far as I could see trials mitigate against these two qualities that I want in a dog.

So why would I want an FTCH/FTW pup over one from a pair of dogs I've seen working out in the field beating and picking up all day regularly through the season?

Tin hat on ready for incoming

[Bryn]

I suppose what I'm asking is could breeding specifically to win Trials (over time) give rise to a subsection of gundog breeds similar to what has happened with breeding to win Shows?

[Rascal]

[Bryn]

I'm kind of expecting flack

[craigavonjoe]

I have two dogs that I am gearing and trying to train towards trials – and two dogs that are my shooting/beating/picking up dogs.
Both sets get trained different, just like a sprinter would train different than a marathon runner.
Trial dog is brought out for and hunted for short period of time and brought back to heal, or on the lead. He is conditioned to hunt for 10, 20 or 30 minutes at top rate, missing nothing and takes commands first time.
Shooting dog is hunting all day, sometimes not getting a flush for hours, but plods along at his on pace as he expects to be on the hills for at least 5 hours and if they are more than 15 yards away seem deaf to the whistle.

Why would ye want a pup from trial stock – because the parents have proved that they are trainable, and hopefully the pups will be trainable, to what standard and to do what type of shooting is up to the owner.

Edited to say ....looking forward to hearing the responses though !!

[086*downey]

Totaly agree with Joe -- best way to describe it is sprinters v marathon runners and they are both bred and trained to do different jobs although the crux of both jobs remain the same i.e. find and flush and retrieve shot game.
If a dog only gets bursts of hunting for 20 mins they will go flat out everytime they get hunting as they know they will be stopped after a short period of time. If used as general shooting dogs they learn to pace themselves to ensure they last a full day as they known they will be out for a few hours and if go hard from the start will not last the duration.

I am a shooting man so I want dogs with big engines and stamina to hunt allday and a strong determination to keep going even when it might have been an hour or two since the last flush and its hard going.

And so I select dogs that suit my requirements and a trial man will do the same -- although a mix of both is also not a bad thing to try get a mix of speed and stamina.

Bryn you quote -- "As far as I could see trials mitigate against these two qualities that I want in a dog" --- says it all // we all want slightly different things from dogs based on what we want to use them for. You are not trialling and so the qualities reqired of trial dogs will not come into play for you (or I) and vica versa

[Rascal]

Sorry Bryn only joking......

We want all that drive, style, biddability, sound mouth, good nose, mute whilst working intelligence etc in our dogs. Mediocrity to mediocrity dilutes even further after time...

We have two bitches from a repeat mating here, the breeding was nothing recent on the dam’s side but she was an absolutely fantastic working bitch to a FTCH.

Mika a pup from the first mating is a soft dog but is fast flashy with bags of stamina goes through any cover with a fabulous nose on her, works stuff out and has a lovely temperament. We could have sold her a dozen times over..........

Cody a pup from a repeat mating has glimpses of the above but is never going to be as good as Mika, she will and has made an excellent picking up dog this last season. She needs more work though; so there are no guarantees, would I breed from her no................... And I know which dog gives me the most thrills to work.

As the others have said Field trial dogs are just as capable of doing a full day’s work but they don’t do it at the speed shown at a trial, they learn to pace themselves as all working dogs do. We wouldn’t want to lose all those years of breeding from our working dogs surely.

Rascal

[Bryn]

Thanks for the replies.

However comparing marathon and sprinters is a bit misleading, they have fundamental differences in their muscle fibres which determines which event they are best at, the type and proportion of these is formed during developement of the foetus and determined to a certain large extent by genetics.

I think bidability is a balance of natural inclination and training, probably equal parts. The ability to work on its own account is entirely innate, what training can do is either permit or inhibit the ability to use that ability

How many times have we seen a sports person change coach/club and either become anonymous or suddenly come into their own. It was particularly noticeable in rugby union during the switch from amatuer to professional, some players were particularly suited to intense, rigid coaching & game plans (the trial dog) while others who seemed to be more naturally gifted floundered.

Is the intensely controlled short burst type of climate required to win trials suited to a particular type of dog and could repeatedly breeding for these traits from a limited number of bloodline for a number of generations produce a type of dog less suited to what most would consider traditional gundog work?

[trekmoor]

Is the intensely controlled short burst type of climate required to win trials suited to a particular type of dog and could repeatedly breeding for these traits from a limited number of bloodline for a number of generations produce a type of dog less suited to what most would consider traditional gundog work?

In America they have what are called "Hi-drive" labradors ....dogs bred for trial work . They can take the stresses of lots of training and come back for more. These dogs may be a bit more than the average Joe Soap would like to train.

This seems to be leading to some Americans now importing British dogs with calmer temperaments .

In this country I have noticed that many of the people who poo- poo field trials still want to see recent and strong field trial breeding when it comes to buying a pup.

Only a small percentage of all the dogs bred for trialing here have much success in trials. The litter mates of those pups will probably become "ordinary gun dogs" and most of them do fine as rough shooting dogs, beating dogs and picking up dogs. They have been bred to work so they do work.

Wullie

[Qest12]

However comparing marathon and sprinters is a bit misleading, they have fundamental differences in their muscle fibres which determines which event they are best at, the type and proportion of these is formed during developement of the foetus and determined to a certain large extent by genetics.

What utter tosh. They don’t have fundamental differences in muscle fibres from birth; they haven’t done any physical activity to establish them. Short bursts of high weight/intensity exercise will eventually give you fast-twitch muscle fibres, which in turn, gives you lots of strength and power in short bursts. Long sessions of low intensity exercise (e.g. hill running) will eventually give you slow-twitch muscle fibres- which in turn give you lots of stamina and endurance.