Progressing The Stop To Direction Control

[Merlin]

I’ve been working on Merlin’s “stop to whistle” for a while now.
Method I’ve been using is to blow the stop, hand in the air with a piece of sausage, when and only when his bum’s on the floor and he’s looking at me I toss him the sausage, now he’s doing that pretty much every time within range of sausage tossing I’m adding in retrieves and recalls etc – all’s going okay with that..

His directional training is going fine, left / right / back from sitting at a wait command he picked up pretty quick, we’re still doing that though as we need to do more blinds in that situation..

Now then, he still doesn’t respond to a “stop” whilst out on a retrieve, generally once he’s away he’s away until he finds the dummy, very occasionally he’ll stop and look at me but still won’t take any direction, think he’s just looking at me to see where he is in relation..

So I’m struggling to move on from stop to whistle when he’s just scooting about within 20 yards or so to getting him to stop and take direction.

Just recently I’ve started sitting him up, walking away 10-15 yards and throwing a dummy out so that I’m sort of in the middle.
I send him for the mark but blow stop as he gets close to me, then send him on again.
Haven’t done it too many times and always send him for a nice long, easy memory before we finish just to show that he still gets to do that..

Am I going about this the right way?
Are there any other ways I can start getting this into his retrieves?

Cheers,

Mark

[Naj]

Presumably you're talking about handling the dog on blind retrieves?

Naj

[Merlin]

Presumably you're talking about handling the dog on blind retrieves?

Naj

Yes..
Have I waffled a bit?
Sorry..

[Naj]

Then you're trying to progress quicker than the dog is learning the new routines. Sounds like the dog will do the 3 card trick 'blind'. Have you generalised this to different areas? Can you drop a blind out then sit the dog up & throw a marked retrieve out to left & right as in the 3 card trick format & then send the dog back for the blind in the face of the marked distractions to right & left? And similarly with the dummies to right & left? If the dog will do all this & take a good line out to a blind that gets it into the area of the fall, then you may be working at too great a distance. Try easy short blinds & then extend the distances: send the dog out on a blind about 20 yards out but in the wrong direction. Stop the dog at the 20 yard mark then handle it right or left onto the dummy, which has been planted at right angles to where you want to stop the dog. You could use the inside corner of a hedge line to help guide the dog &/or a bit of wind assistance. If the dog doesn't stop then you are close enough to intervene. Just some suggestions, but there are other ways of going about it. But get the basics right first.

Naj

[Judy]

All my Flatcoats were like this to a greater or lesser degree, its as if, once they are sent for a retrieve, the mist descends and they really haven't the time to stop and listen to you and if they do stop they are often air scenting all the time they are waiting for your next hand signal. The Cockers seem to want to stop and watch you, much easier to train!

I used to chase after the beggars and make them see the error of their ways but I was younger then! Does he do lefts, rights and backs on dummies he hasn't seen? Try sending him out when there are no dummies for him to find that way he can't be rewarded for charging about and ignoring you. Stop him within his comfort zone ie 20 yards or so then, if he stops, chuck a dummy to one side or the other and send him. Build on distance slowly varying whether the dummy is a blind or a mark when he stops. Also try and build a straight outrun on blinds so's you don't have to stop him, much easier!

[Merlin]

Thanks you two..

I did actually do a reply to Naj's post, thought I'd submitted it but it's not here !!

Just off out with dogs now so will have to reply tomorrow (at work)..

Mark

[carolwildbird]

I'm glad you have asked this question, because I'm at the same stage with my flatcoat She is getting the idea of blinds, but wouldn't yet do your three card trick, Naj. Its as if she believes she knows better. On a single blind without distractions she is starting to get the idea that if she stops on the whistle, she will get some direction as to where the dummy is.. its almost as if by doing them, she is starting to believe me, but its far from 100%. When she does stop, she is good with direction (but on highly scented ground, the hunt instinct takes over).

Are you saying, Naj, it would be better to work on the short blind with distractions before progressing to longer blinds? I've been working on single blinds with more distance so we can improve stops and handling.. as they say change one parameter at once.. distance, duration, distraction, (and i've been working more on distance than distraction, although have done some limited shorter ones with one dummy distraction).

Judy.. its a relief to hear that this is typical of flatcoats... I get some comments about lack of stop whistle training from one of my (non flatcoat) trainers... (but no comments at the flatcoat training days, now I come to think about it!).. despite doing stop whistles till I'm blue in the face... excellent close to and when not hunting. Guess thats what arousal does for you.

Carol & Bliss

[shootingstu]

Now then, he still doesn’t respond to a “stop” whilst out on a retrieve, generally once he’s away he’s away until he finds the dummy, very occasionally he’ll stop and look at me but still won’t take any direction, think he’s just looking at me to see where he is in relation..

So I’m struggling to move on from stop to whistle when he’s just scooting about within 20 yards or so to getting him to stop and take direction.

The way that my trainer gave me to introduce my ESS to the stop whistle on a retrieve is to; sit the dog - throw a dummy 30yds ish - walk away 30yds ish in the opposite direction from the dummy - call the dog to you with the whistle - stop the dog half way in with the stop whistle and hand command - then send the dog for the retrieve. this did the trick for me she will now stop full speed going away from me.

Stu

[Naj]

I certainly agree that a Flatcoat will work differently to a Labrador, a Goldie or a Chessie, due to the setter influence, & that you should train & make allowances accordingly, with every breed, for that matter.

Carol, I suggested shorter distances to help Mark with his problem of the dog not stopping to take directions. But it is a good idea, in any case, to start with shorter distances when you begin to perfect the dogs handling skills, because you have more control when things go wrong. There seems to be a bit of confusion over how you might develop the dog's handling skills. I start early with teaching increasingly long memory retrieves & then progress to doing these 'blind', first with singles & then doubles or maybe triples, all in the same area. This effectively teaches the dog to take a clean line out to the fall area & doesn't involve stopping or handling the dog. I then progress to the 3-card trick with marked retrieves & get them really handy at taking the different directions in no particular order, eventually throwing the retrieved dummy back out into position so it acts as a distraction & can be 'handled' to later. The dog will inevitably make mistakes in anticipation & will have to be immediately stopped & redirected, so this is when the stop whistle & looking to take directions is bedded into place. At this stage I begin to toss the retrieved dummy out to its original position as the dog is retrieving one of the other dummies & is unsighted, so I can later handle it onto these dummies blind, all the time working to the 3-card trick format, on fairly open cover & over short distances, and with me standing perhaps 10 - 20 yards away from the dog when directing it. Then I move on to the 3-card trick using 3 dummies previously placed out blind, all standard stuff. Once the dog is taking directions well I place the dummy normally thrown to the back of the dog as a blind retrieve, put the dog in the usual position & toss a dummy out to left & right & then handle it back onto the previously planted dummy. This invariably causes confusion & I work on this until the dog will go back cleanly for it despite the distraction of the 2 thrown retrieves to right & left. At first I might have to walk to the dog & send it from my side or even walk it a little closer to the dummy & send it from my side again but eventually the penny will drop & it will learn to handle back on it. I then do the same routine with each of the dummies that are to right & left of the dog so it has the confidence to go where directed regardless of whether it has seen a dummy thrown or not. I can't see any point in trying to get a dog to handle at a distance until it has shown itself capable & confident in your directions to handle well at close quarters.

As for a dog that won't focus on you after it stops, don't let it move until it does.

Naj

[Merlin]

Right then, sorry I didn't get a chance to post today at work, I'm changing jobs, leaving on Friday and they keep expecting me to do things still !!


Anyway, a few great replies here, thanks.
Can see now that I have a lot more work to do on the clock face stuff at close range, Thanks Naj, take it all on board, now I just have to get it straight in my head...


Stu, did your routine tonight with him, he handled that one okay, think I'll do that now and again at varying distances perhaps, don't want to make him hesitant on his recalls though..


Judy, like the idea of sending him on a "dummy" blind and then stopping him, will be having a go at that as well..

One question though, if at sometime he's sent for one of the dummies and he goes for, and gets to, the wrong dummy, what do I do??
Does he get praise or what?


Not sure about that...