Obedience, obedience, obedience.

[Lloyd90]

Now having read that obedience from the dog is the cornerstone of any type of dog training, not simply gundog work , what are people's views on when and what obedience to teach a dog ?

Also anyone recommend any good reads / guides on obedience to possibly teach as a good groundwork before going onto gundog work ? cheers

[Cass]

I think for a gun dog obedience really just revolves around a few key commands... recall, hup/stay, and heel. Anything else is extra. Obedience should start as early as possible. Most methods people use are positive now or reward based so there is no reason a puppy can't start. As long as there are no harsh/physical corrections before a pup is 6 months old, there is tons a pup can learn. I don't feel as though I have really started with my guy yet, but at 5 months his recall is impeccable and he sits and stays on command. I have not taught heel as I believe it is a command that requires corrections for the dog to understand what is expected and to keep it in line when it decides to disobey. But hup/stay and recall are very easily taught with simple praise and/or treats. As far as books, there's tons - and all come to the same outcome. Youtube also has lots of videos on gundog and obedience training. The key is just being consistent and never allowing the pup to not follow the command (or with a puppy, don't give the command if there's a good possibility it won't listen - they have a very short attention span and are distracted easily).

[WGD]

Too much obedience can drill the drive out of a gundog, it is a balancing act involving conditioning the right responses from the dog IMO. Until they are old enough to know better then they just take the piss!

[Springfield Pointers]

The basics are nice and important. The fewer the better. There is nothing worse than hunting over an overcontrolled robot that stops every 5 yards and looks at you for instruction. Beware of overtraining, and overcontrol.

[trekmoor]

I have the same warning as the others - beware of over training.

Wullie

[Pwned]

I thought obedience just meant that if you tell a dog to do something (known command, at distraction levels that the dog has been trained up to) it does it, promptly, no ignoring or "I'll just finish sniffing this first" or other dicking about...

[trekmoor]

I think I train obedience a bit differently from some other people. It's hard to explain but I begin with "should do" and end up with "must do." I show a pup what it should do again and again over a period of days or weeks before insisting the pup must do it. Doing things in this way could be called inconsistent but I go for enthusiasm before perfection. It takes me longer to train a gundog than it probably should but it works for me so I do it.

Wullie

[leeky]

I think I train obedience a bit differently from some other people. It's hard to explain but I begin with "should do" and end up with "must do." I show a pup what it should do again and again over a period of days or weeks before insisting the pup must do it. Doing things in this way could be called inconsistent but I go for enthusiasm before perfection. It takes me longer to train a gundog than it probably should but it works for me so I do it.

Wullie

That post really nailed it for me personally. Not wanting to go into the whole overthinking or jargon thing, but sometimes it's difficult to know whether to follow the advice of one experienced and successful trainer who highlights the advantages of letting the pup know right from wrong and (softly) instilling commands from the start albeit keeping it simple and consistent, and another equally experienced and successful trainer who emphasises the importance of having fun and building a bond with the pup (including maybe recall and sit), but obedience can come later. I appreciate that different dogs require different approaches, but the above seems like a happy medium without risking breaking any enthusiasm, drive or bond.

[Judy]

I think the two examples are really one and the same thing? Whenever I play with a pup I'm teaching it commands, I try not to let the dog know it though! Teaching "come" for example means calling the pup excitedly and being OTT when it arrives, including the occasional treat, by the time its ready to go out and about the recall is pretty good. The outside World is strange so I play on that by recalling often again OTT when the pup (who won't be straying far anyway cos its uncertain) arrives back with me. By 4 months old recall is pretty reliable, mainly because I don't recall when the pup has its nose immersed in scent or its playing with another dog or greeting someone, any time it is unlikely to want to come. That way I don't teach it to ignore me. By 6, 7, 8 months I know and the pup knows that recall is recall regardless, then if it ignores me I insist. Same rules with everything else from "sit" to "down" and stay there until I say otherwise.

Retrieving is slightly different for me, I let the pups run in right from tiny and recall with manic enthusiasm. Then when they are reliably retrieving from here there and everywhere and they also know what "stay" means I bring the two together. There's usually a look of surprise and they sit until sent, if the pup is over keen don't throw the dummy but walk out and place it, return to the dog then send.

For me training is simply an evolving relationship rather than I say you do or even I say here's how you do it. Obedience as in compliance evolves with the training once I'm sure the dog knows what I mean then, like Wullie, I insist on compliance.

[Nonehpets]

Those two styles are not mutually exclusive Leeky; I instil key commands in my Pups by letting them see what works to their advantage eg they get their food quicker if they Hup first. I don't force the Pup to sit but until he does he doesn't get his food and we all know puppies are stomachs on legs - so I am encouraging obedience.

Part of the reason that is a successful strategy is that it is all within the context of having fun and bond building - overall pup is learning that doing something I like (obeying me) means he gets lots of my attention, which makes him wriggle with delight and think I am the most awesomest human on the planet. (I choose not to correct that misunderstanding on his part! )

To answer the original question: Obedience is the art of being able to control any aspect of the dog's work/behaviour - and then remembering just because we can doesn't mean we should; be too controlling and the dog loses enthusiasm ... think how you feel if you get nagged to do something.

When training for obedience this means knowing how much the pup is capable of - I see Bryn writing about his pup doing quite long sit/stays; my wee boy (at a month older than Bryn) can Hup and wait nicely next to me but isn't ready to stay somewhere when I walk away - it will come - he isn't being disobedient; he isn't a clingy pup he often hunts out to 100m with confidence - but I have taught him to watch and follow me so now he just needs longer to process the concept of temporary abandonment.

Cathy