Gundog Training Forum

Obviously I am a little bit bored and have nothing to do for the next few minutes other than mischief make

but I keep seeing posts about cross breeds with almost a breed specific titles ....sprockers, springerdors labra "bloody"doodles and anything ".....poo" etc

And as much as I understand the odd accidental litter I just wonder if lots of people are jumping on the "hybrid" band wagon or does the hybrid vigour actually exist and do these new types of dogs bring anything to the table that we haven't already got?

They don't bring anything other than fluffy cute dogs that appeal to the masses. They certainly don't bring anything to the dog sport world.

hybrid vigour does exist, but in the labras/poos unless they've health tested there's going to be no benefit- cockerpoos are just as likely to get PRA, labradoodles are just as likely to get hip dyspasia (if not more, due to rubbish conformation in some cases).

when it comes to sprockers/springerdors etc, there's probably an element of jumping on the bandwagon, as well as a bit of 'I've got this good dog, and this good dog, and if I put the two together I'll get a REALLY good dog' type thinking. Sadly it doesn't really work like that!

If our ancestors did not mix up the available breeds they had we would not have the remarkable dogs we have now

OK I am stirring the pot a bit

I just think it's astounding that anyone has the arrogance to imagine that their randomly putting two dogs together will create something better than what has been created by people who've spent their lives furthering a breed!

jeffD wrote:If our ancestors did not mix up the available breeds they had we would not have the remarkable dogs we have now

OK I am stirring the pot a bit

True but our ancestors didn't hesitate to cull the rubbish they bred en-route to the end product.

Wullie

Peter blatch says one of the best dogs he had was a spanador. I did not ever see it, but I've seen his current dogs, and if it was up to those standards or better, it would of been a very good dog.

There is some truth to hybrid vigour, but if you breed from crap you'll still get crap! There can be perfectly valid reasons to crossbreed, but only dogs good enough for purebreeding in terms of working ability, health and conformation should be used.
Crossbreeding is obviously a good way to avoid disease from recessive genes, unless both breeds have the same mutation (which is not uncommon) and multifactorial diseases like HD are common in crosses as well as purebreed dogs.
First crosses are usually predictable in terms of conformation, temperament and working traits; almost every lab x springer I've seen has looked like a small lab with slightly larger ears and an increased desire to hunt compared to a pure lab. Crossing crosses together is much less predicatble and my experience in practice of treating f2 labradoodles with ED and HD suiggests any advantage from hybridisation is soon lost.
I have no issue with well thought out first crosses but the creation of a new breed in the 21st century is hard. The original dog designers bred LOTS of dogs and culled anything with didn't have the traits they wanted in order to make their breed. They had something very specific in mind and bred for it. Current wannabe breeds are too diverse in type and any attempt to set a 'breed standard' and exclude non-standard dogs (eg excluding shedding cockerpoos) would just be met by the formation of breakaway groups. I mean we already have labradoodles and australian labradoodles and mini labradoodles and what IS a cockerpoo? (american cocker, show cocker,working cocker x mini or toy poodle?)
We must not forget that designer crosses have been with us a long time....what is the lurcher after all but the ultimate designer crossbreed?

vicky payne wrote:There is some truth to hybrid vigour, but if you breed from crap you'll still get crap! There can be perfectly valid reasons to crossbreed, but only dogs good enough for purebreeding in terms of working ability, health and conformation should be used.
Crossbreeding is obviously a good way to avoid disease from recessive genes, unless both breeds have the same mutation (which is not uncommon) and multifactorial diseases like HD are common in crosses as well as purebreed dogs.
First crosses are usually predictable in terms of conformation, temperament and working traits; almost every lab x springer I've seen has looked like a small lab with slightly larger ears and an increased desire to hunt compared to a pure lab. Crossing crosses together is much less predicatble and my experience in practice of treating f2 labradoodles with ED and HD suiggests any advantage from hybridisation is soon lost.
I have no issue with well thought out first crosses but the creation of a new breed in the 21st century is hard. The original dog designers bred LOTS of dogs and culled anything with didn't have the traits they wanted in order to make their breed. They had something very specific in mind and bred for it. Current wannabe breeds are too diverse in type and any attempt to set a 'breed standard' and exclude non-standard dogs (eg excluding shedding cockerpoos) would just be met by the formation of breakaway groups. I mean we already have labradoodles and australian labradoodles and mini labradoodles and what IS a cockerpoo? (american cocker, show cocker,working cocker x mini or toy poodle?)
We must not forget that designer crosses have been with us a long time....what is the lurcher after all but the ultimate designer crossbreed?

Agree, particularly the highlighted para, I suspect that most of the breeding is from dogs that aren't good enough for breeding pure.

I have just finished switching off the t.v. That ex-comedian Ronnie Corbett just gave a sickening interview to a breeder of cockapoos in which she was allowed to voice the "benefits" of this cross completely unchallenged. Then the scene switched over to a mating between the two breeds during which one of the dogs appeared to be wearing a little woolly jacket !

As a comedian I liked Ronnie Corbett, as a programme presenter I detest him. Even his voice drives me up the wall.

The lady breeder was honest enough to say that she could get about £450 for a cocker pup but could get about double that if she mated to get cockapoos.

Wullie