Suggestions for a loopy lab Ebony

[dbrw1]

Hi all, Right im really struggling with getting my dogs attention. 16 months old bitch. Read all the books and watched all the dvds......some on gundog training

She is eally hyperactive which means getting her attention is an issue. Even to the point of putting her lead on in the morning she gets sooooooo excited i think th neighbour think i have a pet elephant not a dog.

Out walking as soon as i let her off the lead she will run around doing donuts looking like her arse is on fire. Tends to come back to me on her terms not to the whisle or call. Used to but not any more. She sees it as just being a game i think. Tried treats which did help a bit but still not instant enough.

In the house or garden she is great, stops on the whistle and hand signals. Will sit and wait while i go off and hide her dummy for blind retrieves...even sarted listening and watching for hand signals. Still very hyper though.

However if i take the training out to the field its a different matter. I have done a few retrieves that have gone well over ditches and some water retrives in a lake but more often than not she will get the dummy and roar around with it untill she gets bored.

I belong to a local Wildfowling club that run gundog training session throughout the summer to keep their dogs in check etc but i dont feel confident in taking her and letting her off if she is going to play silly buggers.

Am i expecting too much? has she still got too much puppy in her? wrong food? the anoying thing for me as is she is very capeable. Might be something ive have done? dont know.

Not looking for a Field Trials Champion allthough there are quite a few in her family tree. Just want her to pick up a shot duck/pigeon without it comming back ready plucked.

Any suggestions welcome?

[Naj]

This is a management problem. You have effectively taught what you refer to as hyperactivity, by inadvertently rewarding the dog for showing hyperactive behaviour. You need to start again in redefining your relationship, so the dog learns that it is only going to do what it wants to do if it is in a quiet state. So it doesn't go on the lead/out of the house unless it is waiting there quietly. Then it only moves on from there if it waits quietly while the door is opened, then it doesn't go on from there until it waits until you walk through first. And it isn't released off the lead until it is waiting quietly etc. You don't have to say a word while teaching this, just simply control the environment so only the correct behaviour is rewarded by the dog moving on to the next step. If the dog won't wait quietly while you slip on the lead then it goes back on the hook. If the dog tries to bust through as the door is opening then it gets immediately shut. If it waits while the door opens & then tries to dash through before you then you are ready to stop it before it hits the outside & take it back to the beginning again. It will seem like an uphill struggle at first & the old behaviours will keep cropping up for quite a while, plus some new ones, but if you are consistent & persistent, so the dog only has one way of doing things - your way - then it will learn. This dog is going to spend a lot of time watching & waiting so this type of conditioning is really important if you are not going to have a hyper dog jumping up & down with excitement on the foreshore, & it should extend to everything that you do with the dog, so that it learns to 'switch off' until action is required. The retrieving outside the garden would be better done as going back memory retrieves along enclosed tracks & paths & through gateways, water retrieves & interesting ones over fences & ditches etc, anywhere where she will be funnelled back in to you by natural barriers. Once she has built up a history of bringing the dummy straight back to hand then the old ways of messing around will drop off. Especially as your other conditioning begins to kick in. Even if you find that you have to put in more work on her basic obedience you still need to sort out the silly beggars problem, as highlighted above. Given that she has had so long to develop these unwanted behaviours it will take several months before you can expect a reliable change in her. But start today, with the mind-set that, from now on, she does everything your way.

Naj

[Nonehpets]

I was obviously drafting this at the same time as Naj's response but am leaving it up since it maybe interesting for you that we have picked up on similar aspects?

Well we cannot see you or the dog together - so it is always a bit of guesswork - but from reading your entire post here are my guesses ...

She is eally hyperactive which means getting her attention is an issue. Even to the point of putting her lead on in the morning she gets sooooooo excited i think th neighbour think i have a pet elephant not a dog.

Sounds as if she is confused ... this is an easy start to fix.

When you are ready to take her out she gets nowhere until she is sitting quietly. If she gets excited and hurls herself around turn your back, go sit down or give her the sit hand signal and wait for her to comply. If she calms and you start to put the lead on and she gets jumpy again take the lead off and go back to square one. Next she only gets to go through the door if she is walking calmly on her lead ... otherwise back in and start again. This is really boring and tedious but it will not take her long to realise that she gets nowhere unless she works with you. It might take you several weeks of consistent refusal to play her silly game but she will learn. You do then need to remain consistent with this so she doesn't relapse.

I live against a busy main road and have to use the front door for setting off with the dogs; Dicey at about the same age as Ebony knows that the bottom half of the stable door stays closed until both dogs are sitting AND once that is open he does not set off until I have gone through the door.

Out walking as soon as i let her off the lead she will run around doing donuts looking like her arse is on fire. Tends to come back to me on her terms not to the whisle or call. Used to but not any more. She sees it as just being a game i think. Tried treats which did help a bit but still not instant enough.

Just a guess - more inconsistency and lack of clarity. When you recall her do you insist she recalls fully every time - or do you let her off with a partial return and send her on again - if this has been your approach she now thinks recall is turn round and start back until released. Easy habit to get into once you think the recall is reliable. What do you do when she ignores the recall? if you keep pipping and calling she can ignore you because she knows fine well where you are - instead go quiet, walk away or crouch down so she has to come find you - become an unreliable human who needs the dog to watch out for him - and wait. Again this will take a few repeats to let her know this is the new order of things - her job is to watch you all. the. time.

Don't rely on treats - up the stakes to restablish what you want - divide her entire day's rations and instead of putting it down in her bowl twice a day feed her some of it for each recall. I sometimes reward Dicey's recall with kibble ... I always make sure that I still have some of the pieces in my hand and he knows they are there; he also knows he doesn't get it just for showing up at my side but only in response to a command. Timing is key to avoid a sticky dog.

In the house or garden she is great, stops on the whistle and hand signals. Will sit and wait while i go off and hide her dummy for blind retrieves...even sarted listening and watching for hand signals. Still very hyper though.

However if i take the training out to the field its a different matter. I have done a few retrieves that have gone well over ditches and some water retrives in a lake but more often than not she will get the dummy and roar around with it untill she gets bored.

This sounds like the other classic training mistake - not proofing behaviour in bite size steps; then letting the dog away with messing around instead of insisting on compliance.

Back step to moving in baby steps and not moving on into the final big wide smelly fun world until she is compliant in all stages. Also don't make her sit and wait - let her run in for a while longer. Read Trekmoor's "Libby's Diary" thread from last spring for tips on getting compliant retrieves.

Am i expecting too much? has she still got too much puppy in her? wrong food? the anoying thing for me as is she is very capeable. Might be something ive have done? dont know.

She is indulged - she has you wrapped round her little claw and she knows it. Food may be a factor but more likely she is not getting brain exercise because when she gets hyper or messes around you give in and so her training is not developing to keep testing her. She needs to stop being in charge and you need to step up to that role.

Cathy

[dbrw1]

Thank you both for taking the time to reply. Very much appreciated.

I have no doubt atall that the problem is with what i have done/not done or doing. its a matter of correcting me to hopefully get the required result.

As for the giving up, that i dont do. i have many empty packets of paracetomol and dare i say dry tear ducts to prove it.

how do you go about showing disspleasure if she does something that you are unhappy with when. I feel that at times i am forever telling her off and this may also be fuelling the hypeness. or maybe breaking up the bond........a dog doesnt want to come back to someone that gives it a telling off? oh wheres those paracetomol.

Thanks again for your suggestions. They will be put in place imediatley.

[Rascal]

I feel that at times i am forever telling her off and this may also be fuelling the hypeness.

With a fizzy dog like this you need to remain very calm and telling her off in an excited manner or shouting will just serve to fuel her excitement. Just try using a flat voiced nope.. By the same token praise needs to be a stroke and not excited verbal praise...

or maybe breaking up the bond........a dog doesnt want to come back to someone that gives it a telling off? oh wheres those paracetomol.

Telling a dog off when it returns doesn't help either it's too late...

Thanks again for your suggestions. They will be put in place imediatley.

And I'll get panned for asking this but out of interest what are you feeding her ?

Rascal

[Naj]

I think that you've answered your own question. If you are always telling her off &/or threatening her the hyper activity could be one of the responses that you will get - flight, fight or freeze, the standard survival options to any perceived 'threat'. If you have a normal relationship with a dog then you don't see this type of behaviour, especially in a dog of this age. It is a learned behaviour & probably started quite innocently when she was a pup & felt pressured so went into flight mode & found that it worked. The apparent silliness came from how you first responded, which rewarded the behaviour & the dog managed, then,to turn it all around into a game, with your unknowing collusion. If you have trained wanted behaviours/commands correctly, so the dog understands how you want it to respond, and that includes good manners about the house & your person, then there should be little need to 'tell her off'. You are having to do so on a frequent basis because you haven't managed to teach her (she has been unable to learn) what it is you see as wanted behaviours, so you fall back on reprimanding her, which is also meaningless, because you can't convey to her what it is she has done wrong, & she responds to your anger/frustration/threat by falling back on the old winning silly beggars game, simply because she is insecure & lacks trust in you. And because, in these situations, she has learnt (you have taught her) that it always works.

I would stop thinking in terms of telling her off & go back to what Cathy was explaining & rebuild your relationship from a sound footing. Using edible rewards would also be beneficial with a dog like this, but find out to use them properly first, without using them as a bribe. Until the dog has the confidence to come to you when called & act quietly & attentively around you, then you will make little progress. But it is doable. Will just take a bit of time & understanding.

Naj

[dbrw1]

Sounds as if she is confused ... this is an easy start to fix.

When you are ready to take her out she gets nowhere until she is sitting quietly. If she gets excited and hurls herself around turn your back, go sit down or give her the sit hand signal and wait for her to comply. If she calms and you start to put the lead on and she gets jumpy again take the lead off and go back to square one. Next she only gets to go through the door if she is walking calmly on her lead ... otherwise back in and start again. This is really boring and tedious but it will not take her long to realise that she gets nowhere unless she works with you. It might take you several weeks of consistent refusal to play her silly game but she will learn. You do then need to remain consistent with this so she doesn't relapse.

I live against a busy main road and have to use the front door for setting off with the dogs; Dicey at about the same age as Ebony knows that the bottom half of the stable door stays closed until both dogs are sitting AND once that is open he does not set off until I have gone through the door.

This i have been doing ever scince she started getting over excited about going out as she also does it when i lock up at work. this started about 6 weeks ago and is woking well.

Just a guess - more inconsistency and lack of clarity. When you recall her do you insist she recalls fully every time - or do you let her off with a partial return and send her on again - if this has been your approach she now thinks recall is turn round and start back until released. Easy habit to get into once you think the recall is reliable. What do you do when she ignores the recall? if you keep pipping and calling she can ignore you because she knows fine well where you are - instead go quiet, walk away or crouch down so she has to come find you - become an unreliable human who needs the dog to watch out for him - and wait. Again this will take a few repeats to let her know this is the new order of things - her job is to watch you all. the. time.

Don't rely on treats - up the stakes to restablish what you want - divide her entire day's rations and instead of putting it down in her bowl twice a day feed her some of it for each recall. I sometimes reward Dicey's recall with kibble ... I always make sure that I still have some of the pieces in my hand and he knows they are there; he also knows he doesn't get it just for showing up at my side but only in response to a command. Timing is key to avoid a sticky dog.

When i have called or whilstled to get her to come back and she hasnt i have just carried on walking, no more whistling or calling. she normally doesnt come back as she has her nose in somewhere sniffing. Then when she relises how far away i have got she will come running, normally straight to me. Hope this makes it a bit clearer.

The treat thing sometimes works but she isnt really a lab that likes her food......got to be a first. She wont hoof her dinner down like most labs and will graze. only in the morning or evening. Te only Reason went down the treat route is that she isnt really a dog that like a fuss so praise when she does something well is quite hard.

This sounds like the other classic training mistake - not proofing behaviour in bite size steps; then letting the dog away with messing around instead of insisting on compliance.

Back step to moving in baby steps and not moving on into the final big wide smelly fun world until she is compliant in all stages. Also don't make her sit and wait - let her run in for a while longer. Read Trekmoor's "Libby's Diary" thread from last spring for tips on getting compliant retrieves.

This im poberly guilty of. I was trying to chanel her excitment to work by challenging her with her retrives thus digging a hole for myself going by what you guys have writtern. Back to basics it is.

She is indulged - she has you wrapped round her little claw and she knows it. Food may be a factor but more likely she is not getting brain exercise because when she gets hyper or messes around you give in and so her training is not developing to keep testing her. She needs to stop being in charge and you need to step up to that role.

I will make a point of being more of a leader however from where i stand i thought i was. I dont give up when im training her. It seems to be her first retrieve, the retrieves after that she nomally brings them to hand. It seems more of an excitment thing? also ive only been doing it little and often so it doesnt get boring for her as i know that can have an adverse effect.

Im feeding her Skinners Field and Trial Crunchy.