Interesting Article

[Rascal]

I read this on Sunday and thought I would share it and then got involved with other stuff and completely forgot..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/pe ... essed.html

Whilst I agree dogs learn better without fear or pain they do still need boundaries.... What are your thoughts...

Rascal

[LJR]

The thing is, once again, extremes are being focused on.

Whatever happened to a moderate, well balanced approach?

[ESS]

Do what works for the. i tried positive training with rewards didnt work one bit!
changed trainers used traditional methods the dog knows where he belongs now still with the odd corection now and then and my dog loves me to bits.
my sisters dog soft as hell i woudnt dream of training him with traditinal methods just voice will do thejob.
my view is regarding my own dog... if i were still training my dog with modern methods i would still be running round a field to get him come back.
Hes hard as hell so for a novice handler has taken me a long time to show him whats expected.
For me its all goes on the dog no two dogs nare the same .one method may work for one not the other!
Now i best get back to work!

[Bruneval3]

Thanks for sharing Rascal, very interesting read indeed.

Our very first pet Labrador was taught by my Father using "the old fashioned way", she turned out one of the most obedient Dogs I have ever known. I can remember cringing though when she was being chastised!

Move on from then 20 odd years, when I leave the Army and get my first ESS pup, done the reading etc etc, she too was "made to obey" albeit she wasn't disciplined so strict as my Dad used to. She turned out fine.

Move on again, I undergo Police Dog Training where once again it was "do as I say, When I say it", believe me I saw some tough Dogs broken into submission, not nice to see but it worked, some might have heard of the use of the "counselling couch" if it was your Dog that needed the counselling it was up to you (to administer the punishment) under the guidance of the Sgt Instructor, so you couldn't go in soft!

Several Dogs later without doubt the strongest bonds I have made has been by using "the power of the human mind over the Dogs" what I am saying is being consistent, fair, using my voice to show my dislike and so on. As been said already, no two dogs are the same, but all are trainable! Just needs the master to find what makes said Dog tick.

Not very good at expressing myself via a keyboard, so hope you can see my point. Never lose your temper even though you may be seething, put the Dog away, until you the human are in a better mood and ask yourself what am I doing wrong that the Dog isn't getting?

Happy training!

[Mike A]

It's not all black and white , it's about reading your dog surely ! Middle ground , and a bit of sense and a lot of work that's dog training isn't it ? But as always newspaper article's , t.v program's are produced for the masses .

[Naj]

There's nothing new here that we didn't know already & I didn't find the article particularly extreme one way or the other, apart from the usual journalistic laziness. And any trainer (Mugford was quoted as such) who uses reward based methods to good effect will tell you that negatives are also an integral part of training/conditioning, as are setting boundaries. What the research perhaps highlights (it left the ethics for others to decide upon) is that what a traditional trainer would see as a dog exhibiting a biddable demeanour is a learnt behaviour (appeasement) that is one of the consequences of training by aversives. Whether you think this a good or bad thing depends upon your training experience &/or how you wish to train, which can depend upon a variety of factors. When I trained traditionally that submissive body language was what I was looking for & how the dog might feel about it didn't really cross my mind - that was the behaviour of a 'biddable' dog - but when you look at the methodology behind the use of aversives they are all based upon escape/evasion of punishment, in some form or other, so it should come as no surprise that they may induce some level of psychological fall-out, as the research showed.

The article also clichéd the usual misunderstanding of 'positive' methods - that they are 'positive only'. However you train, learning can't take place without both positive & negative consequences, in one form or another. It's the easiest thing in the world to teach a pup all the basic 'commands' using reward based methods. I've trained all ways & find it infinitely more enjoyable to bring a pup along using positive based methods, & the pup really enjoys it too & gets totally committed to the training 'game' & with a totally different body language to what you would expect from a traditionally trained dog. Which is what the research was highlighting. If one of my pups showed traditional signs of submissiveness or 'willing to please' body language in training then I'd know I was doing something wrong.

Naj

[druidale]

I use reward based methods,but my dogs still have boundaries. Most reward based/force free trainers have boundaries. Postive doesn't mean permissive

[Judy]

I guess this is nearer the truth for the average pet owner;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/pe ... it....html

If one of my pups showed traditional signs of submissiveness or 'willing to please' body language in training then I'd know I was doing something wrong.
Naj

Not sure I entirely agree with this, willing to please body language, in my book, is that look of delight on a dog's face when you pick up a lead / dummy bag / call them for a fuss / dinner, whatever. Submission is just that cringing, lip licking, rolling over, panting, something I don't mind seeing if the little blighters have majorly transgressed and I have popped at them.

I was hard on my first Flatcoat, it was the done thing back then, but she could be picked up and shaken without any kind of submissive behaviour appearing afterwards, she had perfected that "are you feeling better now you have that out of your system?" look. She would also behave impeccably for at least two days afterwards. Never had another like that, not sure whether that's a good thing or a bad! It may be, as I have become more experienced, I am better at reading the likely next behavioural offering and am able to nip it in the bid so not needing to jump on them. Certainly my dogs have become less and less "hard" the more my knowledge has increased.
Or, it could just be that I no longer feel a need to compete so don't need that high level of compliance these days.

[Bruneval3]

I think you have hit the nail on the head so to speak Judy in your last paragraph, your experience has taught you how "to read the Dog"! Like most things in life, you make mistakes that hopefully you won't next time round (well some do)!

[Miff]

It may be, as I have become more experienced, I am better at reading the likely next behavioural offering and am able to nip it in the bid so not needing to jump on them. Certainly my dogs have become less and less "hard" the more my knowledge has increased.

I agree. Think this is the nub of the issue Judy. Same applies to me.