irish-english springers

[spanielful]

The decline in the quality of the ess in Ireland is not very well documented but is very well noted by serious observers of the breed.The overall appearance of the breed has changed in the last 25 years or so,a marked reduction in size,a reduction in coloration,and more importantly a softening of their character.Time was when one could buy a springer from virtually any breeder and it was a given that your dog would hunt all day long and would face heavy cover if the occasion demanded,sadly this is no longer the case,and its now a struggle to find a good hunting springer here in Ireland.Who or what is responsible?The general concensus is field trialling.Having spoken to many spaniel people they all point the finger of blame in this direction.Whether or not this is the case is somewhat of a moot point,the important point now is to determine if it is too late to reverse this trend.I'm no expert on breeding or genetics and I would be loath to propose any solutions,maybe someone out there would be knowledgeable enough to.I now have what I consider to be four good dogs in my kennel after putting around thirty through my hands in the last three years.Some of these rejects were bred from some of the top trialling dogs in the country,further proof if any were needed that this problem is a reality.Your thoughts on this issue would be appreciated.

[James]

its got as much to do with the type of people that are getting into the sport as anyting, far tomany now wouldnt know what to do with a good going springer so softer easier types are bing bred. There are still the hard hunting ones about just not as many as its not what the major part of the market wants.

[Judy]

Does a harder hunting Spaniel tend to be more difficult to train, generally speaking or are there other reasons such as wanting a dog which trains quickly and simply? Suppose I'm asking does the dog have to be a complete nutter to tackle cover in the way expected?

[spanielful]

All springers tend to be a bit nutty,but I had dogs years ago that would face any cover,and they virtually trained themselves.Ithink the modern dog hasn't the same initiative,tending to rely more on handling and not doing things of its own volition.

[Canburne]

its got as much to do with the type of people that are getting into the sport as anyting, far tomany now wouldnt know what to do with a good going springer so softer easier types are bing bred. There are still the hard hunting ones about just not as many as its not what the major part of the market wants.

James has got it absolutely right - dogs don't change - people do....... Any springer or cocker, whatever its breeding, should be capable of a full days work.

[Madlab]

Any good trial dog could last a full days shooting if it had a couple of months rough shooting, Its just that they are condition to sprint instead of long distance. Its the same with everything people look back and think things were always better in their day. You only have to listen to the old men in the pub talking about football

[spanielful]

Its not just matter of if they could last all day alone,you obviously didn't read all my post as there are a lot more issues you ignored either by oversight or deliberately.To pretend that there are no problems is part of the problem.

[allan450]

30 dogs in 3 years is a lot.not saying your a bad trainer but thats serious amount of dogs for rough shooting.im from ireland and i understand where your coming from but if you know the right breeders that are true to producing the best for the breed and not out to make a quick buck.i know a breeder that only breeds the old lines big well marked dogs with little trail breeding if thats what your looking for.im getting one myself in a few weeks.

[086*downey]

I agree with Allan above re number of dogs / dogs need time and patience I dont judge a dog until its second proper season -- in the old days I dont think lads could afford to go through that many dogs in short period of time so had one or two that got all their concentration so that by 7 / 8 mths they were well advanced

However I also totally agree with your original post.

There are now three strains of springers in my opinion - show; shoot; trial

Thankfully I have got myself a cracker of a springer dog. He is built like a tank; serious stamina and courage and I can hunt him between 8:30am to near 5pm (getting dark)on woodcock ground in Mayo with 20 mins break at lunchtime for a sandwich and cup of tea in the car -- and the lunch break is for me not him...
The last red ink in his pedigree is grandfather line which is Monalue Cheery Blossom and other red ink are the likes of Badgercourt Warlord etc

I bought two expensive dogs in last 5 years with great trial breeding and both turned out to be useless with no drive or courage -- and I am a soft handler -- I ended up giving them away as pets after months of persistence and they were the two most expensive dogs I ever bought -- never again... I know it wasnt just me as I bought one from one of the top trial men over here and he did a bit of research and confirmed at least one of the litter mates with a trial man in UK also went the same

Interesting point my shooting partner in Mayo has a terrific springer -- real old school. His family have bred this line over the last 30 years not worried re pedigree or papers just dogs that can do the job. They have had the line for over 30 years from their fathers dog in Mayo and only breed every 8 - 10 years for their next shooting dog so in reality they have had about 4 litters in circa 30 years. His current springer is 3rd one he has had in that period with this ones father still hunting well at 13 years old before unfortunately getting killed by a car. My mates springer has no papers as they dont care about all that stuff and he is definitely a dog I would have in my kennells.

My young dog

[spanielful]

The reason I went through so many dogs in such a short space of time is that I sometimes bought 3 and four pups at a time,often buying 2 or 3 from the same litter at varying ages.The majority wouldn't run out of your way,with some of them just walking behind me at 6 and 7 months old.I dont think its unreasonable to expect a pup of 6 or 7 months to make some effort to hunt,Iwould discard any dog of this age that was still walking around with no apparent interest in hunting. I have two pups at the moment a bitch of 5 months old and a dog pup 6 months old.The bitch pup is showing the interest I would expect at her age the dog on the other hand is what I call a walker,he is more time behind me than in front,even ankle high grass is too much for him,and he has a long list of field triallers in his pedigree.This is fairly typical of my experience of the modern springer, or maybe I'm just unlucky.But then it seems that all my friends are unlucky too.I would be interested in contacting the gent from mayo if he would pm me.