Gundog Training Forum

I had my first day out picking up with my 2 1/2 year old lab today and would love to be able to say he was the perfect dog.....!
Mac is a big, strong "driven" dog and it has been the toughest challenge I have taken on to train him. I dont profess to be a "natural" gifted trainer, and have very much learnt by trial and error and by having regular 1 to 1 sessions with a pro. I am in awe of some of you on here who clearly have years of experience and endless patience !
So, to the day, its a small walk/stand shoot and we were hoping for c 75 head. I gave my gun to a guest today, so one less thing to worry about.
1st drive I positioned by self way back from the guns and watched a stream of birds fly over with very few hit. Nothing came our way , but I could sense the adrenalin running through Mac and kept him on a lead, wasnt going to risk him running in.
We moved onto the second drive and I took up a slot 250 yds behind on a hedge and drift way where most of the birds head for. I was hoping for one or two "easy' birds out in the open on the field. No such luck, the guns shot like prats and very quickly there were 3 strong runners in the hedge and ditch. One thing I noticed, was that Mac seemed to know which birds were hit and those that werent as they flew over. I sat him up, took the lead off, at the same time blocking him to stop him taking off, because I sensed his determination to "go". He nearly waited for the command to get out and was off like a rocket. less than half a minute later he flew over the ditch about 35 yards further down with a very lively cock, brought it straight to hand, job done. Then i reckon I made mistake number 1.Before i had a chance to stop him , he was off again, crashed through the hedge, over the ditch and flat out across the next field.Oh crap, he's gone awol. Blew stop , nothing. Hollered, nothing. Started walking down to where I could get across to him, when the hedge parted and out he comes with a second bird. This time I sat him up, took and dealt with the bird and then cast him off in the direction I thought the next bird was. He totally ignored my direction , flattened the hedge again ( think he knocked a tree over this time ) and disappeared for what seemed ages but was probably only 2 mins. Turns up again with a very lightly pricked cock. Sat him up ,took the bird slipped lead on and.....breath ! We had a few issues walking back to the vehicles, because every hedge, ditch etc was full of birds in his eyes and he wanted in to make sure. The next drive i was asked to stand with a back gun close to our boundary to keep the chances low of losing birds . The gun was probably the best shot of all of them, and dropped 1 good bird well out in front. Mac wanted to go but I held him in check. The last bird of the drive came over us and though saluted twice flew on and I didnt think he touched it. Drive over, let Mac off, directed him out to the dead bird, he goes 5 paces turns round and flies over the ditch behind and is gone. Here we go again. Two minutes later as I cross the ditch to find him, the gun shouts to me,"He's back and hes got a hen " i go back over the ditch and sure enough hes there with a bird, very much alive, but clearly hit.Lunch.I should have left it at that. I didnt.Last drive in the main wood and one of the guests who had shot well all day was 100 yds in front of me. Only bird over him crashes down dead 25 yds in front. At the end I walk up to it and it takes off like a road runner and before I can stop him Mac is gone.This time he doesnt come straight back, so i set off after him. Cant see him so i keep going for what seems like an age and still no sign. Birds are flying back over me now and Im beginning to panic I get to the end of the wood and he appears behind me with the bird. The gun claps me on the back and says "well done, your dog has got a bloody good nose and he will make a cracking dog in time" Then it all went to Sh1t. Before I could get a lead on , he was off chasing a bloody squirrel . ten minutes later I caught him. There was not a lot of love between us.So clearly, his steadiness is a big issue. Have I got to accept he needs a lead most of the time? Did i do too much with him ? He had been out a couple of times last year so knew what the game was, but I had hoped that the training through the year would have settled him a bit. Clearly I have more work to do . I rang my trainer earlier and told him how it had gone. His response was along these lines. "Mac is a lot of dog and we need to concentrate on his steadiness. He has a tendency to go self-employed if you take your eye off him, so dont ! Trust him a bit more when hes working, he knows more about finding fecking pheasants than you do , so let him get on with it !" Sorry for the long post and I hope some of you with experience of this type of dog can give me a few pointers.I look forward to your comment and criticisms !

Hi tom63

Sounds like you had a great day and if I am not mistaken , you , like me have a " Guid Raking Dug"

Wullie Trekmoor is far more experienced and will likely confirm

What a good read - you could have been talking about my girl there! She has always been a hunting machine and enters cover like a spaniel, I've never had one like it before but I hope she is not the last. I should and could have done more with her steadiness but the simple fact is that she amuses and amazes me in equal measure. I never put her in a position where she could ruin a drive and always have a lead to hand - this would probably be my best piece of advice. She too watches the sky for pricked birds (seemingly identifying pigeons, partridge, woodcock and pheasant by their silhouette and glancing balefully at me when one of the guns misses what she thinks is a sitter!), will move away from me a few feet to get a better view and treats dead birds as something for others to deal with, literally throwing them back at me before taking up 'runner watch' again.

Yesterday she was on top form and I decided to take advantage of a cock bird that tucked up in the air and hit a hedged fence with a crash. Certain it was dead, I sat Row up and walked over to pick it up. Glancing back at the dog, I should have been warned - one eye was on the sky, the other on me and there was an 'Oh really?!?' look on her face. As I bent down to pick the bird it sprang into life, went away from me parallel to the hedge before trying to dart through the sheep fence, through the hedge and into the woods. I knew I wouldn't be quick enough to prevent this so the only option was to whistle Row and get her to take charge, which she duly did - looking both smug and disgusted at the same time.

Picking up for me is not about how many dead birds I can get onto the game carrier - it is more about finding the bird with a leg down that has got up again and flown on or the lightly pricked bird that has run and run and run. For this reason I am normally way back from the guns - well I like to think that's the reason! I am lucky to have two dogs - Row for hunting and runners, Baron for dead birds in cover and both for sweeping at the end of a drive, so the best of both worlds.

I am with your trainer as far as advice goes; trust your dog (but keep a lead in your pocket!)

Sarah

A "Guid Raking Dug", what a brilliant description and one that would seem to fit Mac perfectly if I subtracted all the issues with steadiness . As much as I was proud of his ability to find runners on the day, I must admit I was very peed off with his stubborn attitude and refusal to stop or recall most of the time.He knows what both mean and I can only guess that I put too much temptation in front of him and he was only focused on hunting and retrieving. It wound me up by the end of the day and made me question my lack of understanding of how his brain works. I am clearly going to have to go back to basics with him , but not sure how to reduce the adrenalin rush he gets when we get out in the field and how to re-enforce his attention back to me. Any suggestions ?
Sarah, thanks for your kind comments, honesty and advice .I have a lead with me at all times and hope in time not to need to have him on it full time. I think, that to do so may work against me when I take it off to start him to work, or am I wrong ?
I totally agree with your views on picking up, any body can pick a dead bird,(though some guns seem incapable !) and the satisfaction in finding the bird that you know and your dog knows is hit , for me, is priceless.
greenshank1, I saw a pic of your bitch on another thread, what a stunning looking animal,my kind of dog !

hi Tom

Fab read - I love a guid raking dug!!!!!!!!!!!

My gsp girlie would only pick runners - not dead birds sorted now though.

haven't managed to reduce her adrenalin rush and she is 9 now.

Yesterday she watched a duck that was pricked fly over - she marked it well I slipped her lead and she took off like a long dog - I love to see her fly like that

She still bounces and dances around when she gets out the truck for the first drive - trembles with excitement.

Glad you had a fab day and it will be the first of many.


ruth

xxx

Tom63 wrote: Sarah, thanks for your kind comments, honesty and advice .I have a lead with me at all times and hope in time not to need to have him on it full time. I think, that to do so may work against me when I take it off to start him to work, or am I wrong ?
I totally agree with your views on picking up, any body can pick a dead bird,(though some guns seem incapable !) and the satisfaction in finding the bird that you know and your dog knows is hit , for me, is priceless.
!

Hi Tom - using a lead when I need to has a more positive, calming effect on Rowan but she is a little strange in that her version of running in is generally only a few yards and seems to be only to check if a particular bird has been pricked or not and this is always when they are in the air. Once she decides that they are not hit, she is back with me scanning the sky. I know that she shouldn't do this but on one of the shoots I am generally the only picker up and, to be honest, I welcome the extra pair of eyes. Horses for courses, I guess and as I've got older, I have gotten far less uptight about the need for a 'perfect' dog.

A friend makes me laugh with his comments - he reckons that you train throughout the summer, get everything absolutely perfect then go out on the first shoot of the season. After one directional command and a 'Get on', the excitement of the day is all too much and the dog forgets all its training.

I am making it sound like it is a total disaster - it's not. Recall, stop and directions are all firmly embedded but I have learned to trust Rowan's judgement - she's not often wrong and we do work in partnership. I guess what I am trying to say is instill all the basics and keep doing it over and over. Your trainer is right: you can work on the steadiness and things will improve but I think you are always going to need to be on your toes on shoot days.

Sarah

Thanks Sarah, I had a session yesterday with my trainer and he said much the same. He also told me to relax and stop getting so wound up, reenforce the basics at all times and stop bellowing at the dog when things go wrong, as he said, it does no good and if he ignores the whistle why would he come back to face an angry silverback !! ( He is a very rude man but I like and respect him !) When i asked about having Mac sat with a lead on and the problem associated with him thinking that lead off means "go" , he showed me how to release him by using a slack hold on loose lead, hand through the "loop/collar" at the first sign of wanting to go, sharp tug and stop whistle/command, then make him wait before sending out. We were going for dummies in woodland, making lots of noise throwing them out to raise excitement levels and Mac could clearly see them fall in thick cover so he was really keyed up. It worked pretty well, and will do lots more of it. We then did some blinds out on the field which didnt go quite so well ! Mac decided that he knew best where the birds would be, clearly not on open ground but in the ditch and hedge ! Ignored stop and direction and I had to breath, put him back where stop was blown and try again, several times , till he obeyed the commands.It can be a battle at times !

hi Tom

I battled and like you was a small "silverback" - when she did come back she would always sit about 6 foot away - allowing me to calm down. It was the frustration that took over - turned me grey and brought me to tears so much that I nearly gave up - she knew exactly what she should be doing.

went to a trainer and he helped me turn her around - we(her and I) finally began to see to light at the end of the tunnel.

she was a very independent dog and worked on her own not with me.- it took a while for us as Sarah has said to build that all important partnership and also for me to trust her.

Relax on a shoot day - never - most times my heart was in my mouth

she will never be the perfect dog but she does what it says on tin and I love her for her zest for life and how far we have come.

Will always have the "pink" leads( they are pink just in case I loose them - easier to see than green) with me

Relax - enjoy your days with him.


ruth


xx

Thanks Ruth, I fully intend to enjoy him and wont give up trying to improve, him and me ! However, think I will pass on the pink leads , though .......! You clearly have the same feel for your dog as I do for mine, they might be "buggers" at times,but they're our buggers and long may they be so !

Tom63 wrote:A "Guid Raking Dug", what a brilliant description and one that would seem to fit Mac perfectly if I subtracted all the issues with steadiness . As much as I was proud of his ability to find runners on the day, I must admit I was very peed off with his stubborn attitude and refusal to stop or recall most of the time.He knows what both mean and I can only guess that I put too much temptation in front of him and he was only focused on hunting and retrieving. It wound me up by the end of the day and made me question my lack of understanding of how his brain works. I am clearly going to have to go back to basics with him , but not sure how to reduce the adrenalin rush he gets when we get out in the field and how to re-enforce his attention back to me. Any suggestions ?
Sarah, thanks for your kind comments, honesty and advice .I have a lead with me at all times and hope in time not to need to have him on it full time. I think, that to do so may work against me when I take it off to start him to work, or am I wrong ?
I totally agree with your views on picking up, any body can pick a dead bird,(though some guns seem incapable !) and the satisfaction in finding the bird that you know and your dog knows is hit , for me, is priceless.
greenshank1, I saw a pic of your bitch on another thread, what a stunning looking animal,my kind of dog !

Thanks Tom63 .
She was on good form on Saturday . She found two pricked cock birds from the 3 rd drive on an island on the fourth drive so I was delighted with that and on the 6th drive a young gun , lad about 13, on his first shoot shot but winged his first bird , a high cock bird. It came down a long way off and looked like it would hit the ground running . I was asked to try back for it so sent her off and made for the bracken bank . I wasn't too hopefully but by the time I had got to the bank and round the first clump of blackthorn she was coming back with it. The other guns were delighted but the young lad was over the moon . I actually thought she had initially went in the wrong direction so we need to learn to trust them.