Gundog Training Forum

How do gundogs carry the things we ask them to?

Without thinking we are asking our dogs to carry game and therefore weight sometimes not an insignificant weight ( thinking geese ) and I have just come across some information about how our dogs do this in terms of how they distribute the weight as they return with their present .


So I was wondering if anyone has thought about how their dogs carry the game ( not just in their mouths before any one suggests that !) .

I suppose I have more than the average interest but it does have implications for breeding, for build ( which would be optimal) and for conditioning our gundogs .

Also with the bigger weights i wonder if we see the dogs able to 'balance the object or not ?

So before I share what I have found in research I thought I would ask on thoughts ..

What are gundogs doing ? balancing and putting the weight through their hind limbs or do they carry the extra weight through their front limbs ?

If you think about it this has big implications for our dogs spinal musculature and for limb issues.


So any thoughts

Dogs are generally thought to carry 60% of their weight on their front legs with the back legs used for propulsion and carrying the remaining weight.

The weight of birds has to borne initially by the lower jaw muscles followed by the neck / shoulders. My 25lb Cocker happily carries a 3 or 4lb Pheasant and my 36lb Cocker has been known to carry a very lively Belgian Table Pheasant which weighs in at around 5lbs although it did take her a while to work out how!

The Cockers think nothing of a 100 yard retrieve of a Cock runner and come back up the hill at the trot, luckily they don't have to do that many times a day, I prefer not to think about how they manage it too much otherwise I wouldbe buying very big male Labs for pickingup.

Holmes wrote:How do gundogs carry the things we ask them to?

Without thinking we are asking our dogs to carry game and therefore weight sometimes not an insignificant weight ( thinking geese ) and I have just come across some information about how our dogs do this in terms of how they distribute the weight as they return with their present .

The weight distribution when toting the pressie would've been a good a place to train your thoughts on.

Think about it: Gundogs have extraordinarily strong necks for picking and carrying, plenty of "bite" for holding on, and - most often - a capacious gob that can be filled (or fulfilled ) by putting that pressie into it.

Other than that, the old adage about "It ain't the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog" applies perfectly to retrieving, and you needn't overthink things with minutiae as Naj might call it.

As for geese, specifically, almost all gundogs want to retrieve them, your job is to help their want and wish come true - with patient training albeit not necessarily with weighted dummies or, heaven forefend, "goose" Dokkens (what a waste of dosh). Oh, and one of the animals below weighs all of 25 pounds sopping wet - the other, high and dry, goes about 13 pounds.



MG

I think most of a dogs ability to carry weight happens in the dog's head. Obviously a big strong lab ....or even a rather wimpy lab can more easily pick up a bird and bring it back than a little dog like a cocker can but if the cocker is determined it will carry goose sized game or even bigger than goose sized. I agree with Crackerd about dokken geese .... a waste of money and not very good for encouraging a good hold on a bird either.
I know very little about "conformation" but I do know a keen retriever when I see one, regardless of it's body shape, and a keen retriever will tackle just about anything.

Wullie

Well you will be please to know your all right on the money

The researchers in vienna have done some force plate analysis of labradors carrying various weights to see how they distribute the weight They found that It is all through the fore limbs and indeed weight put on the hind limbs seems to decrease in response to weight carried.

Now I often here from ( breeders/gundog trainers ) that ED in labradors is a minor concern.. in my practice I find otherwise but then I maybe get a biased case load ( dogs with issues). So when I listened to the research like this I start to think a little more of how important elbows/shoulders and neck are to the working gundog .

In light of the above It is also not surprising that I see lots of shoulder muscular injuries too and sore neck muscles.

I think it would be very interesting to evaluate the pressures that the fore limbs experience when we ask a dog to jump with a weight ( so far not scientifically evaluated as far as I am aware). Maybe one day someone will do that.

Anyway I thought I would share this information, it is relatively new research and very pertinent to our breeding plans maybe ? (We all need to be aware of ED and shoulder OCD).

It also Makes me think that conditioning is also incredibly important and weekend warrior dogs are being expected to do a lot.

So guys if your reading this think about checking your dogs for muscle spasm in their necks and shoulders after you have worked them, I am sure you all know what it feels like to have muscle soreness.

Think about the physics of it... It can't be the rear legs, the jaw or the neck.

I think as long as mine keep doing it I'll not worry too much about it, lol