The Reluctant Hunter (Cocker)

[RAH]

Morning all,

So here it is ... My working cocker won't hunt if I interfere.

She will hunt like a pro in a few specific circumstances, so I know that she can and will do it, and does it well by all accounts! She will hunt if:

- she's on fresh gamey ground (I hear old-school cockers used to be like this? An old wives tale?)
- she's in woodland or bracken (brambles is getting considerably better after this weekend - 3 nice phessie flushes from brambles - but she'll only go in if she knows for sure there is something in there)
- if she has been sat up and has watched my other dog hunt an area, i.e. jealousy
- if she has the pressure of other dogs around her, e.g. on a shoot, out doing quartering practise with Willis

My aim this summer is to do a Novice Working Test with her, but if I can't cast her off to encourage her to hunt on request, how am I going to do that?

I have tried hiding tennis balls and that works once she gets going, but it takes a good few minutes because she is constantly looking at me and waiting to see if anything gets thrown. There's no flow, it's all very sticky, moving 3 or 4 ft then stopping, then I encourage her a bit further and she stops again, then a little further ... The problem seems to be that she is waiting for retrieves to come out of my pocket.

I've not done any retrieving practise with her for months now because 1) she is a very enthusiastic retriever and 2) I thought if I made hunting all the fun she could have that she would start to enjoy it more.

If I leave her alone and ignore the velcro dog behaviour she eventually moves off and starts to hunt on her own, but if I try to interfere (turn whistle, stop and carry on, etc) she'll obey the command but then we just go straight back to not hunting and walking at heel instead.

I know in certain circumstances everyone would love a cocker that behaves like a tiny retriever But it makes it really really hard to practise quartering and in turn practise things that are done in conjunction with hunting (like stop whistle, stop to shot, steadiness after stop etc). She has done this in my training classes for 6 months now and my trainer keeps saying that we should take her to a rabbit pen. That hasn't happened yet, but equally I keep reading "Game trains game dogs" and "Rabbits train rabbit dogs" ... I don't know if that is a sarcastic way of saying to people in this position "Don't put your dog in a pen" or if it means do do it!

The annoying thing is, when she gets out onto the little shoot I joined, everyone loves her! I get lots of compliments about what a lovely worker she is, how naturally she seems to find game (3 of the 4 phessies in the bag over the weekend were Hattie finds ), how well she listens to me ... But I'll be d*mmed if I can get her to hunt at any other time.

I don't want to put pressure on her because when I do she looks at me and whines. I take this as an indication that she doesn't understand what I want her to do.

Does anyone have any advice? Feel free to ask for more specific info if you think it will help. I wasn't sure what to include here to demonstrate what's happening.

Is this normal for hunting breeds that are new to hunting training? ... Is it possibly to do with the fact that I only ever train outside of lessons on my own and I have no training partner/dummy thrower/pop gun operator so she genuinely thinks that everything good that happens literally comes from me?

(P.S. Definitely don't have this issue with the other cocker. Independence thy name is Willis!!)

[t jack]

I would try having the other dog out with you at heel when you hunt her and always hunt it first, use the other dog as the "donkey" most who aspire to trial will do this, as it is quite common for dogs not to hunt at their best when alone, especially cockers, the "donkey" can be handy as it can hunt the poor ground and you save the trial/test dog for the best ground, id bet after a short period of this she will hunt with more zest.

[trekmoor]

I agree with T jack ....if jealousy works as a hunt motive then use it. Hunt the other dog first then the youngster....I'd hunt the two at the same time if it helped but I think many people who know more about spaniels than I do would disagree with that.
I'd put the youngster back on the lead every couple of minutes and wind it up by letting the other dog hunt on. Then I'd put the older dog on the lead and give the youngster another few minutes..... I'd keep swapping the two dogs about between hunting and being on lead.

I've found with spaniels and with HPR's that this often has the effect of making a pup/dog think it only has a very short time to hunt/enjoy itself so it had better make the most of it !

Tennis balls ...... stop taking them out of your pockets ! My cockers are hunt daft but they love retrieving too and if they got the idea I'd produce balls from my pocket to throw for them they'd behave just like your dog does.
Leave the dog in the car or tie it to a fence post where it will be unable to see you . Then walk a straight line for 30 -40 yards while tossing a ball a few yards left and right every so often to form a tennis ball bordered "lane."
Hunt the dog up the lane , guide it towards the first few balls if you need to then leave it to the dog.
Since the balls will be fairly near you the dog will still hunt close but it will now be actively hunting for the balls rather than expecting to see them leave your pocket or your hands.

Tennis balls are cheap so get at least a dozen and be ready to lose some. If the dog fails to find one or two of the balls do not keep it going over and over that same area , just keep the pattern going, keep the flow of movement going as you hunt on towards the next ball.
Any unfound balls can be utilised as blind retrieves for another dog or just forget they ever existed and buy a few more.
I have never competed in a spaniel trial but my tennis ball trained dogs have won tests.

Rabbit pens ..... I like 'em but in very small doses. I think 5 to 10 minutes inside a pen is enough for just about any spaniel. I take a pup out of the pen almost before it begins to realise it is in one. Pens are useful for getting pups "going" and for training steadiness but I.M.O. they can be overused.

Wullie

[Naj]

How old is this pup/dog? What type of ground are you trying to hunt it over? The dog has proven that it will hunt game & cover so I wouldn't be messing about with tennis balls. I'd also not be hunting it over ground that it is in the habit of not hunting but would look for new areas to hunt until it will go out cleanly on command. I'd also persevere so it got over the period where it was expecting something from you & began hunting for itself. If it's any comfort, I hunt/train alone & have never had a problem in getting a cocker pup/dog 'going'.

Naj

[RAH]

Thanks for the replies.

She isn't actually a pup, she is four and a half I know she is on the older side, and I know the years of pet ownership will have had an impact. But watching her when she is hunting successfully makes me think I can't have broken her that much.

We have our daily walks on a big area of open access land. It has mixed areas - grasses, brambles, wooded areas, a couple of big ponds - I usually try to get her to hunt either in areas where I think rabbits have been or patches where no-one really walks (so grassy, bit of bramble, maybe a few bushes). I try to keep it varied but still in the same big area where we walk. She'll periodically go to the woods with me (where the little shoot is held), but without the motivation of other dogs being around her, she sometimes won't go out of her way to hunt anything.

She does like to hunt for actual things, any kind of ball especially. I've never had to buy any.

balls.jpg

... But Naj, you're saying no to the balls? She got less interested in hunting when I took the "finds" away as suggested by my trainer. I put them back in after Christmas when she reverted to the velcro tendency with vengeance.

[RAH]

Oh, I don't know if it's important, but I'll include it anyway ...

When I cast her off when we're just out and about I use "Get on...". I used the same command when I joined the shoot a few months back, and to begin with she was really reticent to go anywhere.

Recently, while out with the other dogs on the shoot, I have changed to using "Find them..." when she is already moving off.

I tried to use "Find them ..." yesterday when we were out just her, Willis and I, but she didn't appear to make the connection and just looked at me blankly and whined.

[Naj]

Not a pup, then! lol

Does she hunt when you take her onto the rabbit ground? I'd do a lot of hunting on gamey ground but perhaps you haven't got the luxury of having easy access to such ground. How long have you been using balls to get her hunting?

Naj

ps. the commands aren't important but the response to whatever you use will only be built up after long association, not just after a couple of repetitions.

[Judy]

How about sticking your hands in your pockets, whistle tucked away under your coat and just take her for walks? No balls no dummies no treats with you, just dog and poo bags! Walk her wherever you can but don't say a word to her, let her relax and do her own thing.

One of mine will stick like velcro if there's any possible retrieving to be done and will stutter about looking to me all the time if I try anything too controlling but if I just let her go she's fine and she certainly hunts on shoots.

Mine won't compete in tests, I think it takes a special kind of (idiot?) dog to hunt where there is obviously nothing to hunt for, especially if they know there will be a retrieve in the offing as in Tests.

[RAH]

Not a pup, then! lol

Nope, definitely not a pup anymore, although she always will be to me

Does she hunt when you take her onto the rabbit ground? I'd do a lot of hunting on gamey ground but perhaps you haven't got the luxury of having easy access to such ground.

She'll sometimes hunt, but not always. Yesterday for example, I walked over a bit of the land we'd never been in before. I sat Willis up after doing a bit of hunting plus stopping practise with him (very successful!). I tried to cast her off and she just sat there staring at me while doing the cocker shake! I know there were rabbits in there because as he was sat watching, Willis saw one and bogged off after it. Hattie didn't move a muscle.

Do you think I should start looking for a few different places to take her and start mixing it up a bit? Maybe she associates her "walking field" with just regular walking. Perhaps a "hunting walk" in some other places might make a difference?

How long have you been using balls to get her hunting?

She will hunt for balls on her own. Always has done. If she can smell one, she'll go off and pick it up. None of the balls in that drawer are actually hers. She just located them and gave them a new home.

But proactively using the balls as a mechanism to encourage it ... about 6 months on and off. When I started with the trainer, he suggested doing a similar thing to Wullie's lane set up, but only with 2 or 3 balls. He said when she brings one back, send her off again and while her back is turned chuck the one you have back out again a bit further on. So the game can keep going for ages if you want it to. After about 5 or 6 weeks using the balls he said to stop with the balls and put her on some gamey ground (like the rabbity areas) but where I knew there was no actual game about. She did that for a while, but when she wasn't actually finding anything she lost interest really quickly.

[RAH]

One of mine will stick like velcro if there's any possible retrieving to be done and will stutter about looking to me all the time if I try anything too controlling but if I just let her go she's fine and she certainly hunts on shoots.

Mine won't compete in tests, I think it takes a special kind of (idiot?) dog to hunt where there is obviously nothing to hunt for, especially if they know there will be a retrieve in the offing as in Tests.

^^^^ This, exactly this! It is like they are smart enough to be able to tell when to bother doing it and when it's just a facade!