Gundog Training Forum

I have a very soft bitch (3 year old Lab) who is lovely in all parts of her training bar what I call Empty Gob Recall.

It happens when I decide to call her back if she's gone slightly off line on her outrun, or if things have gone pear-shaped and I want to start a retrieve again (essentially a dry run). She absolutely hates coming back, and will do one of the following: a) point blank refuse to come in and just stands there staring at me, b) plods back in a couple of steps at a time, stops to wait for the recall again, plods a few more steps, stops etc etc.

She has never ever been chastised after coming back and she has a 100% sprint-finish recall at all other times. This is really starting to become a problem as sometimes a simple "let's start again" becomes a battle of wills while I try to control my temper. I don't want to poison the recall whistle, but she won't come back if I use my voice either.

Any ideas?

You're effectively punishing the recall, &/or stop command, by taking the retrieve reward away from the dog, & this is beginning to poison your command, which might have repercussions on your normal recall. Do you stop the dog first before recalling it? If so you'd be better walking out to the sitting dog & gently walking it back on a lead. Or if it starts off dramatically off-line stop it within yards of you. The dog is confused because a stop is usually a predictor to being handled onto the reward of a retrieve but suddenly you are breaking this sequence & the commands are becoming ambiguous - the dog no longer knows if they predict reward or punishment. Consequently, the dog is associating this (negative punishment ) with the last action it does prior to it, the stop &/or recall, and not with the outrun. And if she's only 'slightly off-line' then I wouldn't bother stopping her once she is away. I'd sooner make adjustments when she is out there near the area of fall. You are at fault here & creating the problem so change the way that you are doing things - this adversarial approach ain't working & you're only going to make things worse with it.

Naj

I always stop her before I recall her, and have walked out to get her on occasion (but gets v tiresome when she's a good 200-300+ yards away!).

If she's obviously off line from the start, I can bring her back with voice no problem - she won't look happy about it, but she will fire out with enthusiasm on the next cast.

I usually do adjust if she's only a bit off-course when she's way out, but sometimes situations arise when I do want her right back at the beginning, especially if she starts to mess about when being handled. She'll also need to be able to be recalled off a dry run in a trialling situation so this really isn't ideal.

I've tried associating Empty Gob Recall with lots of praise and treats too, but this hasn't really worked - she's just as sulky.

So, should I go get her every single time, without fail?

An impeccably "handled" reply, Naj

Naj wrote:You're effectively punishing the recall, &/or stop command, by taking the retrieve reward away from the dog, & this is beginning to poison your command, which might have repercussions on your normal recall. Do you stop the dog first before recalling it? If so you'd be better walking out to the sitting dog & gently walking it back on a lead. Or if it starts off dramatically off-line stop it within yards of you. The dog is confused because a stop is usually a predictor to being handled onto the reward of a retrieve but suddenly you are breaking this sequence & the commands are becoming ambiguous - the dog no longer knows if they predict reward or punishment. Consequently, the dog is associating this (negative punishment ) with the last action it does prior to it, the stop &/or recall, and not with the outrun. And if she's only 'slightly off-line' then I wouldn't bother stopping her once she is away. I'd sooner make adjustments when she is out there near the area of fall. You are at fault here & creating the problem so change the way that you are doing things - this adversarial approach ain't working & you're only going to make things worse with it.

I thought it was a very good reply too Naj. Personally I'd stop "correcting" her by stopping her, like Naj I'd let her continue "off line" rather than worry her by making her return and then I'd handle her onto the dummy.

Try getting down to the dogs eye-level sometimes . Then try walking straight out from there for 2-300 yards. I'd bet you'd veer off course to some extent especially on a featureless landscape like maybe a grousemoor..... being a dog ain't always easy.

Wullie

Thanks folks, food for thought .

Sham how "happy clappy" are you managing to get your voice to be when your recalling her? Or is your frustration starting to show and its through gritted teeth! If she's stopped when told then you can afford to give bundles of high pitched praise for the recall. Been there done it all lol. Keep at it sometimes it takes longer with some than others. She needs to take the line you've put her on come what may!

Not from a lab background, but if the dog is 2-300 out ist it a bit far to try and correct this? And how far off is offf? Are you expecting to get the dog on a sixpence at that distance?
Constantly stopping a dog as Naj says its gets pissed off and don't want to play ball!
What little I know start close again and perhaps have a realistic view of what perfection you are trying to attain,or are you looking for unobtanium?

I really don't understand why labs need this silly distance? Guns shoot 45yds not 450!! I'd say walk closer

Stihl 090 wrote:Not from a lab background, but if the dog is 2-300 out ist it a bit far to try and correct this? And how far off is offf? Are you expecting to get the dog on a sixpence at that distance?
Constantly stopping a dog as Naj says its gets pissed off and don't want to play ball!
What little I know start close again and perhaps have a realistic view of what perfection you are trying to attain,or are you looking for unobtanium?

I really don't understand why labs need this silly distance? Guns shoot 45yds not 450!! I'd say walk closer

I don't understand why Labs need this silly distance either but for some reason retriever folk like to stretch the line as far as poss She's a lovely, honest bitch and will stop on a sixpence at these distances - I do love her!

Jill, I've tried such over-the-top happy clappy to the point I sound completely demented...but she still sulks . I've had limited experience but I've never had a dog as soft as this one; she's like melted butter but with a surprising willful streak that pops up now and again. (And I know what you mean re taking the absolute line - I've been dropped in the past when a retrieve needed that little too much handling!)

put an easy blind retrieve behind you, when she gets back, turn around and send her for it