Gundog Training Forum

First of all I have to explain that the pup I'm going to talk about isn't mine, I'm keeping, exercising and house training etc. her for a friend till the end of the year.
When she arrived she was 4 and a half months old, about 45 cm tall, weighed almost 10 kg, had lived exclusively in a small kennel with another pup, (together making an incredible and constant noise to show how much they hated to be in a kennel...) knew nothing of the world, had never been on a leash, had never seen or smelled any game.
Julian, my own dog, a Bracco Italiano male 8 years of age, is very good with pups and so they normally attach themselves to him, follow his lead, "obey" simply by imitating his behaviour and it's really easy to keep youngsters under control that way.
Not Kira. We have these small hay fields around the village, typical for Italian mountainsides, and endless woods where the fields end. For the first couple of days she rushed around in the fields (though not following the Bracco), clearly enjoying the freedom, the smells, the butterflies to hunt and only now and then vanished into the blackthorn and juniper thickets. Places to avoid really, because that's where our many wild boars love to lie down...
Soon it became a habit of hers to make straight for the thickets, and for her safety I changed our daily route by going directly into the woods. Which was useless, as there are thickets and undergrowth too, plus the odd woodcock and loads of wild boars, roe deer, foxes, martens and the like.
Now, what bothers me is not that she has the "courage" to slip into any thornbush, but that she's rushing around in the woods actually in constant search of thickets. Without regard for anything or anyone. Affectionate and almost clingy as she is in the house, once we're outside and the leash is off she switches into 5th gear and is gone for 10, 15 minutes, only to turn up again, gallop past us and dive into the next bush. The fact that Julian and I keep moving so that she has to find us on her own, once she has finished her investigation, doesn't faze her at all.

A strong hunting instinct is a fine thing, so are stamina and a keen sense of direction, but for crying out loud, this little animal is just 5 months old...!?
My former Gordon and English Setter puppies (of German and Italian working lines) at that age would run in the fields for an hour and a half, yes, but stopping to sniff and watch and play and ask for a cuddle or dig for mice and generally behave like pups. Kira is already an unstoppable hunter, following the scent of deer (which she shouldn't do at all), chasing little birds out of hedges and hoping to find the first woodcocks.
Were my Setters, born in the 1980ies, all dumb or is Kira just showing me what modern Setters are like?
I'd be really grateful for comments on this by Setter handlers.

I wonder, is it allowed to post a photo here?

I have never owned a pointer but I have trained or have been involved in the training of several. In the main they were like your first pointers . Your present pup seems to be very independently minded so I think you will have to change your usual ways of training to better suit her.

I think you will have to start right now with putting a lot more general obedience into her. ----- Stop to whistle and voice and hand signal and recall to whistle, voice and arm signal.

I think she heads straight for the woods because that is where the game is. My present Brittany does exactly the same thing if I do not turn whistle her before she reaches woods. If I begin to hunt her in the middle of a stubble field she runs straight for it's edges however far away they may be. That happens because she has found game in the woods but very, very seldom ever finds any game out on the open stubbles.

If possible try to have your pup find some sort of game fairly near you and on the open fields. This can be done using homing pigeons if you have access to pigeons.
It occurs to me that maybe the American "Whoa post" method of training may be useful for your pup. Certainly you would get a far greater range of training ideas on one or two of the American gundog forums. Your pup is exactly what many American field trailers want ....but they would train the pup differently than is usually done in Britain or on the continent.

Personally, I think general obedience is the key to getting control of your pup's problem.

Wullie

Yes Sam, it is O.K. to post photographs here.

For example .....





A vizsla I trained doing the bracco leg movement.




Wullie

Obedience is OK for retrievers & spaniels (that are normally under close control) but it's a real pain to have to rely on it to control one of the pointing/setting breeds that has the misfortune of being too independent in nature. I wonder if some of this is down to the pup being poorly socialised before you had her. Obedience might work but you find you're constantly battling against the dog's natural inclination to bog off, & when out of sight it's generally out of mind of the handler. Unfortunately, you do seem to get bog-off dogs that no amount of obedience can sort. I've no direct experience of English Setters but have had dealings with an Irish Setter from impeccable Irish working bloodlines that sounded similar to your dog. Fortunately I was only boarding it, as you are with yours, but it later went on to a top Italian trainer who couldn't stop it from 'disappearing' even with all his experience of the setting breeds. I hope obedience works for you but, if not, look on the bright side, at least it's not your pup & will be your friends problem before long!

Well, I've been doing some obedience stuff, just the basic things you normally start at 8-10 weeks, namely sit and stay, go on the leash more or less beside me instead of rushing forwards, but getting her back on command (whistle or call) doesn't even work with a 20 m long lead, because she just jumps up and down like mad on her end of it, yelping and screaming, eyes fixed on the horizon, while I rope her in. When she finally sits, no praise, no sharp word, no dog biscuit, no proposal of play, nothing can persuade her to switch her attention to me, it's the horizon, only the horizon that interests her...The good thing: her owner is thrilled by her "drive".

For me it's simple, on the lead at all times. When in the garden/confined area, limited play/obedience making everything fun. She would not be allowed off the lead while out and about, needs nipping in the bud now.

@ trekmoor - the day Kira was brought to us, we put some quail in the meadows, but as he, the owner, was too lazy to keep her on a long leash she just rushed on, the bird flew off and she after it. Not flying but almost.
A few days later my Bracco stood pointing a pheasant (chance encounter, we rarely get them here) I brought her near to him on the leash, but again she was too excited and started screaming when the pheasant noisily took off.
For the rest I agree, she must learn some obedience and discipline. We'll see...
@ Bruneval3 - we have no garden, unfortunately, and playing for her means tearing things apart, not really doing something together. Probably because in her tiny kennel she never had a chance to learn how to play.

Must admit she does sound like a problem dog. I'd probably wave her a non - tearful farewell just as soon as I could ! A huge amount of "drive" is of no use at all unless a dog has "willingness to please " too.
I do not envy your friend his dog. She sounds like a prime candidate for e-collar training.

Wullie