Evening folks,
Do dogs develop self preservation with more experience?
The reason I ask is I have a 25month old ESS that has just finished his first season as a peg dog. He exceeded all my expectations and really contributed towards a great season. On the last day of the season we had a walked up clear up day. This was his second walked up day, the first was mostly at heel, so because the season was finishing I let him hunt in front of myself and neighbors guns. Both my neighbouring guns described the experience as "cringe inducing" waiting for the dog to impale itself on a branch. One gun had to swap places because it was putting him off. The end result was he did take a bang above his eye.
Today I took him up the shoot for a hunt, to blow the cobwebs off, there still lots of birds around, he was hunting as hard as usual and he has gashed the inside of his mouth, under his tongue. Blood all over himself. I had to abandon the walk and get him home. The blood stopped when his adrenaline came down, I'm washing the vet bed now from the car!
I've seen plenty of great hunting dogs at trails, they don't seem to hunt themselves (or do they) don't get me wrong my lad in no trail dog his pattern and style is only passable if he didn't turn on the whistle he would be all over the place, he just has no consideration or thought about hurting himself.
Your experience in this would be appreciated.
Self preservation
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trekmoor
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Re: Self preservation
About 50 years ago I trained Guide Dogs. They are possibly taught differently now but back then the dog was taught that the person holding the handle of the harness was a part of itself. This meant that if a trainer/handler got a bump from an obstacle then so would the dog in the form of an outward jerk on the harness transmitted through the handle by the trainer. It definitely was not "positive" training.
Traffic work was where the dog learned not to step onto the road .....even if commanded to..... if a vehicle was approaching. This was often taught using both the handle and the lead to jerk the dog backwards if it attempted, even on command, to step onto the road as a vehicle approached.
To begin with this was taught with another trainer driving a car towards the dog in order to have this situation under better control and to be able to give many repetitions. Very often "noise" was added to scare the dog a little bit, the trainer driving the car would rev the engine as the trainer with the dog reached forward to bang the bonnet of the car with his hand.
For the real "hard cases" the trainer in the car could actually lightly bump the dog with the moving car .........but that was very seldom done. It wasn't exactly "positive" training either !
The sort of dog needing to be bumped by the car is possibly the equivalent of the gundog that batters through cover regardless of the fact that it is hurting itself.........some dogs are just tougher than others in that respect and the toughest of them never do seem to learn from experience .......that sort were rejected as possible guide dogs.
Wullie
Traffic work was where the dog learned not to step onto the road .....even if commanded to..... if a vehicle was approaching. This was often taught using both the handle and the lead to jerk the dog backwards if it attempted, even on command, to step onto the road as a vehicle approached.
To begin with this was taught with another trainer driving a car towards the dog in order to have this situation under better control and to be able to give many repetitions. Very often "noise" was added to scare the dog a little bit, the trainer driving the car would rev the engine as the trainer with the dog reached forward to bang the bonnet of the car with his hand.
For the real "hard cases" the trainer in the car could actually lightly bump the dog with the moving car .........but that was very seldom done. It wasn't exactly "positive" training either !
The sort of dog needing to be bumped by the car is possibly the equivalent of the gundog that batters through cover regardless of the fact that it is hurting itself.........some dogs are just tougher than others in that respect and the toughest of them never do seem to learn from experience .......that sort were rejected as possible guide dogs.
Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
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Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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Cass
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Re: Self preservation
Sounds like the sort of dog I like. Nothing wrong with a hard going dog. In time he probably will ease up a bit and be smarter about it or he may not. My guy used to be the same, his face would be raw at the end of a hunt. Now he seems to move more gracefully through the thick stuff. Or maybe his face is just calloused now hahaha. Enjoy your fire breather and as long as he's hunting under control don't worry about other's opinions.
"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." - Rex Carr
Re: Self preservation
There's not a deal you can do about it in any event. Cut tongues always bleed badly.
Re: Self preservation
Mine aren't stupidly fast in cover but I have had one with a wood splinter under her tongue, one with a badly cut tongue - that was scary - and all, at one time or another have had cuts round their eyes or bloody mouths. Not sure what can be done about it apart from breeding slower Spaniels and I'm sure that would go down a treat with the competitive people!
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
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greenshank1
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Re: Self preservation
I think they do. Or should I say , some do. How much is nature / nuture or intelligence I am not sure.
I take my lab to work in the woods most days and since she could keep up as a pup she has learned to navigate clear fells , Sitka brash piles , freshly cut stumps and mounding sites. She has learned where to tread and how to keep herself safe.
On shoot days she is a beating dog and will face any cover . She is 6 and has had the usual scuffs on her muzzle and her bottom eye lid on her right eye is scarred from beating and apart from a couple of brushes with barb wire has been injury free (touch wood)
I think being a lab helps with being steadier and reduces the chance of injury . I know some neighbouring shepherds won't work their collies in the wood for fear of injuring one of them.
I take my lab to work in the woods most days and since she could keep up as a pup she has learned to navigate clear fells , Sitka brash piles , freshly cut stumps and mounding sites. She has learned where to tread and how to keep herself safe.
On shoot days she is a beating dog and will face any cover . She is 6 and has had the usual scuffs on her muzzle and her bottom eye lid on her right eye is scarred from beating and apart from a couple of brushes with barb wire has been injury free (touch wood)
I think being a lab helps with being steadier and reduces the chance of injury . I know some neighbouring shepherds won't work their collies in the wood for fear of injuring one of them.
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Alice
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Re: Self preservation
He just sounds like a good going cover dog to me!
cheers,
Alice.
A spaniel is a vehicle for a nose
Alice.
A spaniel is a vehicle for a nose
Re: Self preservation
Thank you for sharing your experiences with me.
Looks like I may have to be selective as to where I hunt him, in the hope he calms down a bit and learns to consider the ground.
What surprises me is that this is the most mild mannered spaniel I've seen. He will happily lay down at the peg and just watch the birds full around him and will retrieve and take direction like a lab. Show him cover and a switch goes off.
Like Wullie's he's still doesn't cock his leg! And will pee himself when he comes out of the kennel.
Spanners ah!
Looks like I may have to be selective as to where I hunt him, in the hope he calms down a bit and learns to consider the ground.
What surprises me is that this is the most mild mannered spaniel I've seen. He will happily lay down at the peg and just watch the birds full around him and will retrieve and take direction like a lab. Show him cover and a switch goes off.
Like Wullie's he's still doesn't cock his leg! And will pee himself when he comes out of the kennel.
Spanners ah!
Re: Self preservation
I was presuming you've done a fair bit of quartering/hunting in cover with a spaniel of this age but now I'm not so sure. You say he's a peg dog, does he retrieve birds out of cover or doesn't he get the chance? 
Naj
Naj
Re: Self preservation
Dogs will occasionally cut themselves (tongues/legs, etc) but it is amazing they don't do more damage the way they go through tough cover. One thing to remember is to never groom your dogs eyebrows or whiskers as they aid their navigation through cover.