messing anxiety issues

[99gems]

hello everyone, quick background - middle aged wifey here with 20 odd years dog owning experience. small hobby farm, previously had working border collies and 5 years ago after losing our last one, switched to spaniels. We have 4, my husband and I both train them and husband takes his Sprocker beating. Sprocker is a hyper boy, pita but generally very very good and favoured by the shoot, really good in the house aside from the occasional neediness and thinking he can whinge for attention.
I have a WCS dog who is a complete delight - as a house dog - very quiet and reserved. a happy, confident dog but wouldn't work a day and isn't even that keen on long walks. Prefers to sleep beside the fire. I also have a 6 month old WCS bitch who I am so excited about, she is my dream dog and Ive just started training her. She is also impeccable in the house and always has been, the odd puddle as a wee baby but never one mess to clean up and settles when told.

Then there is my Springer bitch.

She is coming on 2 and training wise is super. We attended gun dog training classes when she was 8 months and she did really well. Steady and biddable. Her biggest flaw is being prone to circling when on the lead. In the house she is a complete nightmare because I cant keep her clean. Looking for any suggestions please.
The only way I can keep her 'clean' is if she is allowed to basically live in a crate beside my bed. When allowed to do this she would go all day (not that she has to, Im home all the time) and be clean and just curl up and sleep. As soon as I move her crate even outside the door, with 30 mins she poos. Ideally, I really do not want a dog sleeping in our room all the time and I promised hubby it was short term! My biggest problem so far this winter is her coming in and out of the house to her bed in our room - soaking wet after running about the farm and painting the walls with her tail! HEre is what Ive tried so far.
Same blankets etc from our room but in the hall just outside.
In the utility room with the other dogs.
In a large crate with one of the others (they love each other).
No bedding at all.
Feeding in her crate.
Heated kennel and run.

Admittedly, for me her being in the kennel was easier but she circled constantly, pooed and made a mess and I felt so sorry for her. Ive spoken to a couple of our vets who have said it really just seems like anxiety and separation from me and all I can really do is kennel her. One of my vets is also a good friend and came to visit. We had all the dogs out, popped her in the utility room while we went to bring horses in and by the time we went back I had a mess to clean. Vet agreed there was no other reason whatsoever, nothing physical and she isnt being fed too much.

Any ideas at all.... typing this I realise I havent tried a DAP diffuser which was suggested so must do that.

Thanks in advance!

[newf]

Sounds to me, since you have multiple dogs which are different but lack problems, then, it’s not you. To me, the pup which is now two is wired wrong and the anxiety is manifested in circling and eliminating.

Most likely, this is something you don’t want to hear but the anxious behavior requires punishment to be stopped. At the same time, reinforcement is required to give any good behavior a path.

[munstyman]

whoa, there newf, punishment is rarely effective with anxious dogs, just ask Cesar Milan I would agree that there may, and I emphasise may, be a need to put down a negative marker for this dog, but I'm of the opinion that this is a communication issue and based on the post an `attention' issue combined with a more anxious nature in the dog.
What is lacking in the post is how all the dogs interact in the house, where they all sleep and why this one is treated differently? The other thing which may be relevant is how the action of messing is being or has been handled ( re to my previous remark to attention seeking ' )
A nervous `gut' will lead to evacuation, but in practical terms if there is nothing in there very little will come out. With this in mind it could be an option to firstly look at what your feeding, when your feeding and also revisiting a toilet training regime. Your dogs are fortunate to live on a small holding, but its been my experience that these dogs tend to go where and when they like and as long as its not in the house, toilet training appears to of been done .... when it really hasn't
How big is her crate? In general terms a dog will not defecate where it sleeps, unless it has too or as maybe in this case its become habituated
A smaller crate could work if you could also work on extending the time she is left alone so you can catch her before she empties and establish a new more rewarding behaviour of `clean' sleep.
If she is really anxious on being by herself, I come back to why she is not allowed to sleep with one of the other dogs? And I would get her into a new routine of after exercise spending a hour with one or other dogs in the kennel so that she could at least dry off before coming into her `sanctuary' of her crate ( which would not be in the bedroom ).
Separation anxiety is often solved by simply extending the time the dog is left on its own in small increments. I do this as a matter of course with a new pup as I work away from home. It is not uncommon to see more dogs with separation anxiety when they are use to having people around them all the time and then suddenly on the odd occasion they have to be left on their own. I always advise getting a dog use to being on their own by introducing a `forced' time out while they are young so they understand that you will return and have not left them for good I also make this time rewarding that they usually get a food filled kong as they are left ... this one I have at present will positively kick me out the door to get her kong
Plenty to think about there I hope, and plenty of blanks to fill in as well, as most behaviourist will ( after taking your money ) tell you its often not the dog but something you are doing or not doing that is creating the problem with your dogs behaviour. Looking at it from a different perspective is often all you need to do ( Experienced dog owners are often the worst at doing this as they know it all, till they realise they don't )

[CockerCanuck]

My sympathies for your problems with this dog Gems and my admiration for sticking with it. I have never experienced anything like this but assuming it is an anxiety issue and not a digestive problem I can offer this observation. There are several exercises obedience trainers use to teach dogs to calm themselves. I am sure you can find on line.

I have a friend who is quite a good dog trainer he rescued an Australian cattle dog bitch which was going to be put down for biting people and other dogs. After spending some time with her he determined her issue was not viciousness but nervous anxiety, both with people and dogs. He did all the usual obedience work and socialization and the dog got 80% better but not truly safe. His solution was to teach it a non-conditional "place" command. He put a dog bed in the corner of his kitchen and when the dog was not being directly supervised it was in it's place, often for hours at a time. The dog learned to settle and relax when it its place but could still observe what was going on and had some social interaction. It was a slow process, I beleive, over a year but the dog did learn to calm itself in the house and be allowed off the bed during quiet times. Whenever it started to show any anxiety it was sent back to place. Over time it gradually needed to spend less and less time in "place" and now is a pretty normal dog around his family and other dogs. It will probably never be really safe around strangers.

[99gems]

thanks for the replies . To reply to some of the questions..
she isnt not allowed to sleep with one of the others, I would love her to... they all sleep in the utility room happily, but she messes which upsets them. Even her her own crate beside them or sharing with one other, Ive done time out etc since she was a pup. She has the smallest crate now we can give her.
None of the dogs are allowed to free range or do as they please on the farm. What they eat is carefully monitored and we have no house training issues with the others. They are all on a raw diet and if I feed her less she loses too much weight.
Her 'safe place' is with me... hence the crate being in the bedroom as i literally worked through so many options to try and help her. She understands 'settle' very well and if Im present there is no messing. In fact if i leave her alone in my bedroom in her crate she is happy as larry... i just cant seem to transition it out of there and I draw the line at sleeping in the utility room. She is never aggressive.
I tend not to feed in the crate but i wonder if this might help? Any other ideas welcome.

[CockerCanuck]

Sorry Gems I did not mean to infer your dog was “aggressive”. I just presented my friends cattledog as another example of nervous anxiety. In her case the symptom was aggression in your dog it takes the form of messing. Wish I could offer more, you have my respect for sticking with her. Hopefully you will find a solution as my friend did.

[99gems]

hiya! no offense taken at all. Its a valid consideration especially with multi dog households. Ive got so much info to type about her (while juggling my g&t you understand) my typing may read a bit 'short'. Happy for all suggestions!
Ive been through everything I can think of re house training, crates, settle time, kongs, feeding...... i always end up with her back in our bedroom as its the only place she's clean, meh. Its just not ideal!

[99gems]

ps this is my latest idea - i feed raw and all the dogs tend to get fed in the yard, each waiting to be released to their dish. Im going to trial feeding her in her crate (which is small) and literally tipping it out on her bedding. Yuk. I know it sounds gross but Im wondering if actually eating off it will stop her soiling it? Im going to keep her in our room doing this for a few days then try and transition out again...

[newf]

ps this is my latest idea - i feed raw and all the dogs tend to get fed in the yard, each waiting to be released to their dish. Im going to trial feeding her in her crate (which is small) and literally tipping it out on her bedding. Yuk. I know it sounds gross but Im wondering if actually eating off it will stop her soiling it? Im going to keep her in our room doing this for a few days then try and transition out again...

I have to commend your patience and resolute attitude to change the dog around. How will you work out the spinning on lead? Do you think both problems probably are rooted from the same source?

[99gems]

thanks newf, the spinning on the lead is less of an issue. I worked on that with the trainer we went to and when i have her out on her own she is easy enough to stop by being consistent and bringing her back each time. When we are all out together its a pain if all dogs are on the lead and its harder to react and be consistent with just her.