Help with a quirk?

[Tennyson.Horler]

Hi team,

I have an odd quirk with one of my labradors. I'll set the scene below. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. She is 2 years old, and I have been building her training around working tests and hopefully trials in the future. I try to train a few times a week alongside my 9-5 and my other dogs.

__

Retrieving exercise:

In a field with a hedge to the right, at the end of the field, 4 seen marks into some rushes/long grass, along the hedge (vague path is 1m off the hedge) halfway are some blinds.

Send dog for a seen, then send again stop, and hunt right for the blind. Repeat in a variety of orders till all the seens are picked. sometimes stopping with a back instead of a hunt. The point of the exercise is to work on her stop and hunting at a distance whilst ensuring she is running unless told.

So the odd quirk, my lab does the first set fine (seen then blind), then after that, its like she looses all condidence and either spins on the out run, runs a short distance then stops and looks at me (to which i either call her back or go to her and cast from where she stopped), or I have to put in multiple backs to get her running out correctly. Normally, she is a one-back dog. The weird thing is that this isn't every time, nor is it always after the first step. If I pivot and try a different exercise, she sometimes does the same thing.

The next time I take her training, I tend not to do any stop whistle work and work on blind ladders to build back her confidence on the outrun, but then her stop whistle goes out the window, and the cycle continues!

Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

[munstyman]

I'm confused so I'm on the dogs side here.
If I understand you correctly your putting four "marks" out at the beginning. Sending the dog to one and letting it pick it, then sending it for a second but stopping it and redirecting it to a blind. If that is correct, there in lies your issue. If you send a dog for a marked retrieve it should be let to pick it. If you stop the dog ( doing what it thinks you want ) and then redirecting it off what it thinks that instruction was, it does not surprise me that the dog is now second guessing your instructions and getting confused.
If my memory serves me right I've had this discussion before on a thread regarding this type of "trick" test set up, which in my opinion serves nothing but making a poor judges marking easier when separating good dogs in a competitive setting. Sending a dog for a seen, or sending a dog for a blind are two different exercises and many will have a different instruction to the dog to help it understand what is required. ( eg. back/out for seen, lost for blind ) If a dog is focused on a seen when you want it on a blind a simple understanding of "leave" to break that attention should be trained in aswell.
The other issue I have is having blinds placed in front of any marks, even if they are to the side and not "on route" to the mark. This is because I have HPRs and expect them to be using their noses as well as their eyes. Should I make a misjudgement on wind conditions or change in direction, I would inevitably cause the dog to change its outrun because it winded that blind, and in training I want to help the dog achieve what I am training and not risk any unnecessary confusion.
If I were you I would be keeping the marks and blinds in opposite directions, and ONLY use a stop on an outrun if the dog was not following the line or as you found your going to get "spinning". Even here, I would be looking at how I'm setting up the dog for the outrun as "my fault" that needs addressing, rather than trying to correct the dog using the stop too often.

[Tennyson.Horler]

I'm confused so I'm on the dogs side here.
If I understand you correctly your putting four "marks" out at the beginning. Sending the dog to one and letting it pick it, then sending it for a second but stopping it and redirecting it to a blind. If that is correct, there in lies your issue. If you send a dog for a marked retrieve it should be let to pick it. If you stop the dog ( doing what it thinks you want ) and then redirecting it off what it thinks that instruction was, it does not surprise me that the dog is now second guessing your instructions and getting confused.
If my memory serves me right I've had this discussion before on a thread regarding this type of "trick" test set up, which in my opinion serves nothing but making a poor judges marking easier when separating good dogs in a competitive setting. Sending a dog for a seen, or sending a dog for a blind are two different exercises and many will have a different instruction to the dog to help it understand what is required. ( eg. back/out for seen, lost for blind ) If a dog is focused on a seen when you want it on a blind a simple understanding of "leave" to break that attention should be trained in aswell.
The other issue I have is having blinds placed in front of any marks, even if they are to the side and not "on route" to the mark. This is because I have HPRs and expect them to be using their noses as well as their eyes. Should I make a misjudgement on wind conditions or change in direction, I would inevitably cause the dog to change its outrun because it winded that blind, and in training I want to help the dog achieve what I am training and not risk any unnecessary confusion.
If I were you I would be keeping the marks and blinds in opposite directions, and ONLY use a stop on an outrun if the dog was not following the line or as you found your going to get "spinning". Even here, I would be looking at how I'm setting up the dog for the outrun as "my fault" that needs addressing, rather than trying to correct the dog using the stop too often.

I never thought about it like that. When you hear someone else explain it, it makes perfect sense. I suppose I was following what I had seen others do in tests and in training but to the detriment of thr training session I have been doing.
I remember being at a test and a mark was thrown up a hill to shot then the judge said when you cast your dog there will be a wounded bird that takes priority so stop and hunt for the wonded then go for the mark, sounds like I misunderstood and had it the wrong way round.

Regardless blinds and marks to be treated separately and hopefully I can give the dog back her confidence.

Thank you again.

[Nickheref]

I agree with Munsty, I think some trainers get so focussed on control they cause the dog to lose initiative (or belief in what they have been asked to do) and so become sticky. Too much handling takes away initiative and we do not know how the ground conditions or wind are affecting how the dog should work an area 80 or 100 yards away.

I was chatting to a deer stalking friend who was on a 300 yards range and having checked the wind at the shooting position couldn't understand why he was missing so far off having compensated for it until he walked down to the target and the wind was completely different there.

[munstyman]

I remember being at a test and a mark was thrown up a hill to shot then the judge said when you cast your dog there will be a wounded bird that takes priority so stop and hunt for the wonded then go for the mark,

Yes, that is the old chestnut that is always rolled out to "justify" the exercise. However in real life, think about it. If your dog is sent to pick up a bird and then another bird is dropped that gets up and runs, it will NOT be a blind to a good dog paying attention. ( It would be harder to stop an experienced dog from going for the runner and sticking to its original bird. That is where the stop and redirect/leave commands are most useful) If it is unseen away from the dogs beat, and really a blind, it will be arguably quicker to get your dog back with the original retrieve and then send it to the area for the blind. The "humane dispatch" justification falls a little flat with the shooting of the second bird and a lack of picker up "availability". IMO
I always advise train your dog to specific commands and actions separately and don't combine them in your "training" until they are solidly understood by the dog, and the confidence of the dog in that understanding is robust enough to not bring in any doubts. Take your time. You will be surprised that a dog that understands specific commands well , will, when required, be able to cope when presented to these " trick" tests, and will perform them without practice.

[Judy]

Couple of things, I got the impression, maybe wrongly, that you were attempting this exercise in the same area each time? Always, always train in different places, even just facing the other way. I was chatting to a chap whose dog wouldn't cross a stream to pick a blind "she always does that at home", I pointed out he wasn't at home. Trying to vary the exercise in the same place may be confusing her too.

Secondly, have you put in the basics first? Does your dog always stop and redirect (if necessary) on a blind with no distraction (mark)? Do you point her to the blind when sending? If I want a dog to pick a particular bird rather than the one she's marked I always "point her" at the bird I want, doesn't always work with my current ill-trained brutes but my ambition is for the dog to always go where pointed. If the dog diverts towards the mark then I will stop her (usually, on a good day) and redirect so it is a useful tool for the box.

Once the dog is confident on both marks and blinds (separately as Munsty said) then I throw a marked retrieve and turn the dog at heel through 180 degrees and send her for a blind in the other direction, there can then be no confusion in the dog's mind. When they've grasped that idea then move the blind more to one side, nearer to where they've seen the mark. When the dog is confident at turning away from the mark to a blind at, say, 45 degrees to the side you can vary what you do similar to your exercise above.

One of my favourite exercises, until my young dog taught me a lesson, was to walk along with the dogs and leave a dummy, walk on maybe 20 yards and drop another. Walking on further would send the senior dog back, stop her at the first dummy and send her beyond it for the furthest one. Thought I'd try it, at shorter distances, with the younger one who had been watching. She shot off, barely broke stride at the first dummy and headed for the further one. Needless to say I blew the stop whistle thinking she could pick the one she'd just ignored. Turned out her stop whistle wasn't very good either.