Gundog Training Forum

I would be keen to know what people think re stud dogs.

Doing some research on a old dog (non FTCH) I noticed that his Sire(non FT dog) bred four FTWs from the one mating to a non FT bitch and it got me thinking.

What if we were to measure success as the Proportion of winning offspring that a sire produced out of his total offspring?Would to top dogs still the top sires.

If a sire(a) gets 100 bitches and breeds 500 pups and 50 become winners that is a 10% success rate(+ this dog may get FTW bitches as well as FTCHs and some shooting bitches)
The sire(b) that gets 5 bitches(normally gets no FTWs or FTCHs)breeds 100 pups and has 10FTWs ,is he a better sire given that he has the same success from a lower amount of matings?Would he breed a higher % if he got the same amount of bitches as dog (a)

I know that the quality of the bitches is hugely important but you would have to think that dog(a) gets more top quality bitches given his status?

what do yee think?We may have great stud dogs out there that are untapped?

Example based on FT in off gundogs.nu websit.(i know both dogs have had multiples of these figs)

Clarburh Art 49 matings recorded.(lets take litter average as 6 pups 300pups) 50 recorded FTWs and FTCHs. 16%/17% winners.
Stedroc Ker 15 matings recorded.(lets take litter average as 6 pups90pups)50 recorded FTws and Ftchs.Over 50% winners.

Is steadroc the better?I dont know?What do ye think?

I made exactly this point on another forum in the last couple of days.

The problem is we dont actually have the info available to us to make these comparisons, but Im with you that the lack of info is what leads the 'fashion' mentality in stud dog choice.

Until the KC provide the online info we're just making educated guesses. If they want breeders to broaden their horizons and increase genetic diversity then they need to provide full data to enable line ( down and up) and performance research of dogs, not just health screening searches and breeding COI of suggested matings.

gundogs.nu (c4k) has far less dogs registered on it than lochindorb(c94k), and neither keep achievements up to date.

Its a good way of checking but There would be a flaw. What about if Clarburgh Art had more pups sold to Pet homes rather than working. You would have to take the number sold to pet homes of the number of total pups born and then work out the % that would be more accurate. But I agree with the idea

CROFTPLACESPANIELS wrote:Its a good way of checking but There would be a flaw. What about if Clarburgh Art had more pups sold to Pet homes rather than working. You would have to take the number sold to pet homes of the number of total pups born and then work out the % that would be more accurate. But I agree with the idea

If the KC got their act togther they should be able to tell you how many trials/tests a certain dog had entered its all about opening up the data. this to my mind would be invaluable, as a ftch stud may have taked 5 years of trialling to get to ftch, where as another may only have taken 4 months.....

look guys i think the same culprits are quick to shoot down certain ftch sires just because there pups from them didnt work, again as i said in a previous thread i think its more down to handlers not being able to train todays temperment of dogs, all i hear is people complaining about this sire and that sire, then go find a differant breed which suits, whats happening is people are breeding from shit bitches with fancy pedigrees, the pups are then shit and they are quick to blame the sire, also i think the problem is this pussy footing about with pups hunting for tennis balls etc,let them frre hunt game scent till u see them hunting with enough conviction to start training them, yes there are soft spaniels out there but adjust your training to suit..

arwesa wrote:

CROFTPLACESPANIELS wrote:Its a good way of checking but There would be a flaw. What about if Clarburgh Art had more pups sold to Pet homes rather than working. You would have to take the number sold to pet homes of the number of total pups born and then work out the % that would be more accurate. But I agree with the idea

If the KC got their act togther they should be able to tell you how many trials/tests a certain dog had entered its all about opening up the data. this to my mind would be invaluable, as a ftch stud may have taked 5 years of trialling to get to ftch, where as another may only have taken 4 months.....

but the dog that took 5 years might have 10 2nds in trials , i would rather use that dog than the 2 trial wonder that makes ftch then is put away for stud..

wouldnt make a different
breeding success of a stud dog, is all down to how much money the owner wants to make, one owner would stud to everything, where as others might only stud to selected bitched.

there are too many variables to ever get an accurate result.

I agree 100%....I just believe we should have access to the data to analyze past and present and make those sorts of decisions.

Not sure about the FTCH comment you made, Im certainly not shooting down any dog? Im merely arguing the KC needs to get its act together and give us all full information on dogs not just a small window of health and COI info theyre planning.

To Be fair nobody has shot down any stud dog. We are talking about how information about dogs & Bitches could be kept by the KC to give either Breeders looking for a Stud or a person looking for a pup more information about the working past of the dog and hopefully helping them to make a better based decision to get the best dogs. This sort of information might lead to Stud dog owners raising their prices but for that they must have a good dog.

Fair point Kelco. It is human nature to follow the masses sometimes so where one famous decides to use a little known/used FTCh sire, many copy (seen it so many times) with their FTCh bitches and before long the sire is known as some sort of fantastic producer. My eye is drawn to the FTCh sire who is mated to average shooting dogs and produces FTW and FTChs. Or even produces lots of FTWs coz there's alot of good FTW springers out there that never make FTCh status because the handler is not experienced enough, doesn't have enough game for training, money to enter heaps of trials etc etc etc.