Gundog Training Forum

after reading about how new rules state that Spaniel show judges now have to visit a KC Spaniel Field trial (to see proper spaniels at work! )

ive heard good reports so far (from both parties) and I'm pleased that Spaniel show judges can actually see how Spaniels are supposed to work/hunt etc.

What do you think about this idea?
Do you think it'll change the way spaniels are judged or do you think nothing will come of this?
From anyones experience (so far) how have the judges been received by the shooting fraternity?

Is this being moved into the lab trial section aswell? I feel there could be a definite benefit for the show judges to see really fit & healthy labs that trial.

From another forum I know someone who both shows and works her Springers. In a nutshell, she cannot show docked Springers but feels her undocked dogs are at risk working. Yes the lines have diversified but the KC Rules and UK legislation are difficult to cope with.

Sgurr

AKC (U.S.) conformation judges must have practical time observing at field events. We have had several such judges at AKC Spaniel Hunt Tests at which I have judged or run in, going back to last year.

They all seem to appreciate the conformation standards anew, and what these mean in practice. Yes, each standard reads the way it does because it has practical implications for the work which the dog was bred.

Hopefully, this will translate into better working dogs being shown, as the conformation judges will put up better dogs.

Yet, only today at an obedience trial, I was told by a lady whose Welsh Springer Spaniel was found to be TOO muscular by a breed judge. This dog is off with a field trainer pro, while apparently showing in breed as well.

There is still a long ways to go her in the States (and the U.K., as well) in this regard.

Whilst I agree with all thats been said I think that all trial winning dogs should be assessed for physical defects by someone who knows what a dog should be built like, not necessarily a show judge. I've seen some awful dogs out at trials, luckily they don't have to do a full day's work 'cos they'd be crippled by 5 years old. If we are breeding for the best lets ignore the trialling dogs with cow hocks, poor shoulders, knuckled over front legs, etc etc when it comes to breeding "from the best". The best is the whole dog taken as a whole not best in one particular aspect.

Could those show judges walk all day?

Judy wrote:Whilst I agree with all thats been said I think that all trial winning dogs should be assessed for physical defects by someone who knows what a dog should be built like, not necessarily a show judge. I've seen some awful dogs out at trials, luckily they don't have to do a full day's work 'cos they'd be crippled by 5 years old. If we are breeding for the best lets ignore the trialling dogs with cow hocks, poor shoulders, knuckled over front legs, etc etc when it comes to breeding "from the best". The best is the whole dog taken as a whole not best in one particular aspect.

Could those show judges walk all day?

Completely agree, but it`ll never happen.

Bill

It does in Europe. We seem Hell bent on taking on board all their idiot rules so why not a sensible one? All potential Field Trial Champions have to be assessed physically before they get made up, its not hard, they don't have to be show winners just well made dogs.

Its back to the old breeding for one objective only rather than for the good of the dogs but at least the show people are starting to try to see the workers' point of view, lets hope it has some effect.

Judy wrote: All potential Field Trial Champions have to be assessed physically before they get made up, its not hard, they don't have to be show winners just well made dogs.

I'd be more inclined to agree with this if all potential Show Champions had to be assessed at work before they got made up ! It's not hard, they don't have to be trial winners just good working dogs.

What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander !

Wullie

trial winning dogs should be assessed for physical defects by someone who knows what a dog should be built like, not necessarily a show judge.

The judges aren't attending to to assess the working dogs they are attending to learn what work the dogs they judge on the bench are required to do, the better to be able to assess the show dogs ability to perform.

Under FCI rules a dog must have attained 1st, 2nd, third or fourth place in Open, Limit, Graduate or F.T. Class at a Chapmionship Show before becoming a F.T.Ch.

trekmoor wrote:

Judy wrote: All potential Field Trial Champions have to be assessed physically before they get made up, its not hard, they don't have to be show winners just well made dogs.

I'd be more inclined to agree with this if all potential Show Champions had to be assessed at work before they got made up ! It's not hard, they don't have to be trial winners just good working dogs.

What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander !

Wullie

They can be, in gundogs, if people can be bothered! Maybe the Show Champion bit should be dropped in favour of no title until work proven, just a quiet dog who retrieves without crunching would be all I asked ~ not too much is it?

I hope seeing the dogs do the job they are meant for will give the judges some food for thought back in the ring....when they are about to place the dog which is 'dripping in coat' first maybe they will remember that the standard calls for moderate feathering and remember the brambles! Perhaps they will see a dog really worming it's way into a stick pile to flush a bird and wonder if the impressive tall dog they are about to call up could manage that better than the slightly smaller dog behind him. The trouble is it's only new judges being required to attend a trial or test and I fear they will simply 'go with the flow' when given their first judging appointments. But it is a start.

My feelings on the working/show split are well known and I think it is a shame so many gundog breeds are now essentially two breeds. I agree that all show dogs should have to show some working merit (sit steady and quiet, make a seen retrieve and sniff out a blind retrieve) AND that trialling dogs should pass a basic conformation assesment so that both sides really do breed from 'the best'.