Credible Cockers!

[Miesque]

You don't need to - in fine print they state the test results are not always repeatable on the same dog and may vary.

[Naj]

Oops

[Judy]

Why would they vary, what are the variables within a gene test?

[Dawnrazor]

There's also test that cone back pure and cross for the same parents but the counter argument is then to blame it on a false pedigree.

Perfectly reasonable to point the finger at dodgy pedigrees, it's been going on for years!! I've said before that if you want to put a springer dog over a cocker bitch to produce sprockers you can't put it it the pedigree!!! I think we all accept that sprockers have been bred and registered as cockers, so why would the pedigree not be questioned????? You can't have pedigree sprockers with legitimate paperwork, can you???
I'm amazed at somepeoples naivety at these things, not pointing the finger at anyone here but there's been a championship wining springer who was registered with a different dam than he was out of, the bitch was about 11 when bred and the pups registered to a daughter of the dam!!
Do people honestly think it's never been done? Seriously, I'd suggest it's far easier to fake pedigrees than it is to fake the results of wisdom tests, as Andy Platt says to the naysayers, how do you explain the consistently of the results from the line of cockers in question?

[Miesque]

You're missing the point completely, Dawnrazor.

I'm not questioning the allegations, I'm questioning the way the "evidence" is being sought. No is saying pedigrees may not have been faked (I agree, they probably have). However, The Wisdom panel (and any other similar) tests are useless in this case as has been stated repeatedly by several highly qualified geneticists (and effectively by Mars Veterinary themselves, who run the tests from an unaccredited lab!). To prove innocent or guilty it would be necessary to parentage test the dogs in question by using SNP/STR DNA profiling panels - the type run by the AHT in Suffolk. If Andy and any others want to get any traction for their case they need to be DNA profiling dogs from the lines in questioning and comparing dogs that should be litter siblings/by the same sire etc not wasting time and money with tests that have no use in their case.

To be clear - The Wisdom Panel (and other breed tests)

- are not repeatable, the results may vary if the test is repeated on the same dog
- cannot identify pedigree dogs
- cannot distinguish well between recently separated/created breeds (such as Cockers and Springers!)
- cannot tell if the breeds in question are from maternal or paternal DNA
- cannot be used for any "dispute resolution"

All of this is freely available to see in the fine print.

[Miesque]

Why would they vary, what are the variables within a gene test?

There shouldn't be any....! From Mars Veterinary -

Due to subtle differences in the number of markers that are returned from our laboratory in repeat runs of the same dog, there may, occasionally, be minor variations in the results reported

This is their statement on accuracy, extremely cagey.

At Mars Veterinary, we pride ourselves on offering the most reliable and accurate genetic tests on the market. Wisdom Panel tests provide the highest level of accuracy possible for a cheek swab DNA test, but that accuracy can vary depending on the quality of DNA collected from the dog. Because of the potential variation in DNA quality, we are unable to provide a definitive determination of accuracy at this time.

[Dawnrazor]

So how do you explain the consistently results?

[Sgurr]

There is a project on Proper Cockers to DNA Profile with AHT several of the progeny from a suspect dog - they also have a geneticist on board to interpret the results re parentage. Yes, a number of the people are still looking at the breed tests but in my view they are a waste of time at this stage - a few to alert to the situation OK but DNA Profiling for parentage is the way to go. Just have to wait for results to come in.

[Miesque]

So how do you explain the consistently results?

They're not consistent - that's the point. I've now been shown results for three dogs which are not consistent privately. I'm really not sure why you don't seem to understand those of us in the field want to HELP the cause not hinder it? There's no point going with "evidence" which is of no use!

[Miesque]

There is a project on Proper Cockers to DNA Profile with AHT several of the progeny from a suspect dog - they also have a geneticist on board to interpret the results re parentage.

I haven't joined Proper Cockers - my blood pressure might not take it! Glad to see that people are heading on the right to track to get this resolved once and for all though and with properly qualified advice and assistance.