Add a cocker???

[Naj]

You find soft and tough temperaments in cockers the same as you do with any other breed. I think a lot of the problem is that people tend to compare them with springers and expect them to be like small springers but they have a different nature, tending to be more independent of mind and trusting of their own initiative. They used to have a reputation for needing game to get them motivated and some still do to a certain extent but with experience they develop great game and gun sense and aren't afraid to use it, which some handlers may struggle with. I like them.

Matt, if I had heavy bramble to pick up in I'd go for a springer, preferably with a bit of substance to it.

Naj

[Alice]

Get a springer. Nice to add a spaniel to an all retriever team, some of my best days picking up were partnering my mate with labs with my oldest spaniel (she's a cocker....but we'll leave that bit aside...), shows their different strengths and weaknesses up.

[trekmoor]

I haven't had cockers for very long, only for about 9 years . I think they are good hunters and good retrievers . I do see them struggle a bit sometimes with big cock pheasants if they have to carry them for a long distance back to me but none of the three cockers I've owned (all males) has ever shown any sign of wanting to give in and leave the bird behind.

Charlie , my worst and my best cocker, has come near to drowning several times in a small river that is dangerous when in flood. The water roars down between high, sheer banks in some places and he gets carried away towards the sea 1/2 a mile away. He finds a way out somewhere down river and returns to me exhausted but ready to go again .....if I would let him. He comes back sodden and so do the birds but he never gives in. I wish I had another one just like him !

I avoid that river if I can but sometimes runners try to get away from him by flying over it .......that never works if Charlie is after them.....he is a nutcase !

I do see cockers struggling if asked to retrieve birds that have fallen a long way out on wet, ploughed fields. The ups and downs of the ploughed fields plus the muddy going make this sort of retrieve physically challenging for small dogs. When I still had G.S.P.'s I found they did great on wet, muddy, plow retrieves. They've got the strength and the long legs for it.

I too have noticed that some "modern" labs are a bit cover shy. That was not the case with either my labs or with those owned by others 20-40 years ago. Those dogs would go into anything with only their size making doing that difficult for them.

One of the local keepers has a definite preference for pickers up that use spaniels instead of labs. He too has noticed the reluctance of some labs to enter thick cover.

This has made me think of something that should really be another thread. ....... Are the efforts of lab breeders to produce "easily handled labs" causing a genetic side effect of making such labs a bit too soft to be really good dogs in heavy cover ? Where genetics are concerned, breeding for one thing often gets that thing but genetically tagged onto it comes the likelihood of a trait that is not wanted. Is that beginning to happen with our labs ?

Wullie

[crackerd]

This has made me think of something that should really be another thread. ....... Are the efforts of lab breeders to produce "easily handled labs" causing a genetic side effect of making such labs a bit too soft to be really good dogs in heavy cover ? Where genetics are concerned, breeding for one thing often gets that thing but genetically tagged onto it comes the likelihood of a trait that is not wanted. Is that beginning to happen with our labs ?

Bill, I'd be most interested in the perspective from over there on your contention. Something similar is alleged against our field trial dogs, Labs in particular, who make their living in water but water seldom lower than 60 degrees Fahrenheit, and how they are being bred with lighter coats and irrespective the ability or "armour" or bottle to take on or take to heavy cover. (The retrieves in our trials are hardly if ever made from cover on account of the old trial saw that "a judge cannae judge what thy cannae see.")

MG

[Alice]

This has made me think of something that should really be another thread. ....... Are the efforts of lab breeders to produce "easily handled labs" causing a genetic side effect of making such labs a bit too soft to be really good dogs in heavy cover ? Where genetics are concerned, breeding for one thing often gets that thing but genetically tagged onto it comes the likelihood of a trait that is not wanted. Is that beginning to happen with our labs ?

Bill, I'd be most interested in the perspective from over there on your contention. Something similar is alleged against our field trial dogs, Labs in particular, who make their living in water but water seldom lower than 60 degrees Fahrenheit, and how they are being bred with lighter coats and irrespective the ability or "armour" or bottle to take on or take to heavy cover. (The retrieves in our trials are hardly if ever made from cover on account of the old trial saw that "a judge cannae judge what thy cannae see.")

MG

Can't comment on their abilities in cover but quite a number of modern labs of trialling breeding I see don't appear to have the double coat which I understood the breed should have. I still often see it on 'good old fashioned labs' on farm shoots, who's breeding is almost certainly nothing to write home about, if it is even known.

[trekmoor]

There is little doubt in my mind that you are likely to get what you breed for but that other less desirable traits or physical attributes may come along for the ride attached to that same segment of the genetic whirligig thingummy.

One of those things could be a lessening of coat density as we breed for speed.

Another trait or two could be linked to the coat colour of labs. There still seems to be very few chocolate labs being trialed or worked .....not in my area anyway. Most of the lab folk I know think that along with the chocolate colour a lack of speed and perhaps "intelligence" may make an appearance.

Wullie

[CockerCanuck]

Most of the lab folk I know think that along with the chocolate colour a lack of speed and perhaps "intelligence" may make an appearance.

Wullie

Same on this side of the pond. Chocolate dogs are very popular with pet breeders but don't get a lot of respect from the shooting fraternity. I don't know if there is any science behind the theory that there is a direct connection between colour and personality. My thoughts are that Chocolate colour is a relatively difficult trait to breed for. As a result a lot of brown dogs are the result of breedings from individuals who carry the gene but might not have the other qualities that would make them desirable breeding stock if they only carried the black gene.

[Judy]

I think its some and some, it can become a self fulfilling prophecy - a black dog wins a Trial, gets bred from, another wins, ditto, soon you have several lines of black dogs from winners and the only people breeding the other colours are the pet and show folk so ability isn't bred for.

Conversely, I have owned a liver Flatcoat, had one here to stay long term and I have a liver / chocolate Cocker, all three had more iffy temperaments than the blacks I've had. I know its a small sample in the general scheme of things but I ain't having another one! Love the colour though.

[trekmoor]

The only chocolate lab I ever had was a one-off from a repeat mating litter. The previous mating had produced "Lady" a black lab of mine that had won a two day, Open trial. The chocolate pup lacked her natural abilities as a gundog although it was , at least, "O.K."
I was trial crazy back then so I sold the pup to an ordinary shooting home where she suited her new owner fine.

Wullie

[NickG]

Thanks Cockercanuck - great and informative reply. You've really got me thinking now! My girls are fast and rangy unless I'm really on them with lots of attention to work a specific area. On the other hand Meg my fox red three year old lives to pick a 100 yd runner and not much gets away from us during drives. The close work is exactly what I want the cocker for. Thanks again and wishing everyone a very good Christmas.