Hybrid Retriever

[Springfield Pointers]

SP, In the world of terriers and running dogs I doubt you’d get a purebred dog. They’re all unregistered outcrosses.

Naj

And how are they stabilising or progressing the breed in terms of working genetics? If you're suggesting that consistently outcrossing working pointer genetics, would be in some way positive for development of the progression of the breed, I'd have to argue against your views. But I'd happily buy you a pint and discuss it further...

[munstyman]

SP, In the world of terriers and running dogs I doubt you’d get a purebred dog. They’re all unregistered outcrosses.

Naj

Hmm, but when it comes to `working terriers and long dogs'. Those in the know select from a few good knowledgeable breeders or those with proven good working dogs, if they want to work a dog. And here again you pays your money and you take your chance with any pups in the litter .
Lets face it we're living post `pedigree dogs exposed' when it comes to the general public, they believe what they see on the telly and rarely go any deeper. Easily led and stupid bunch much like the current frenzie on eating meat or not, to save the planet! load of twaddle. I just feel sorry for those genuine breeders doing health testing, line research and working their parent dogs in the field to high standards to further the breed who have to see the stupidity and greed of those that don't really give a toss about the future of the dogs once they are out the door. Sad so Sad

[CockerCanuck]

Not all the bad breeders are producing "designer breeds" The sad truth is there are lots of breeders of registered dogs who's first priority is money, not the betterment of the breed or their customers satisfaction. I worry about what I see happening with Golden retrievers here.

Breeds like Labs, Springers and GSP's are probably fine because there is a large enough gene pool with enough variation a skilled breeder can find the raw material to produce the type of dog they want. However, I wonder about some of the rarer breeds? Not sure about in the UK but the Irish Stetter was really finished here as a gundog a few generations ago. It was only reestablished (sort of) as the Red Setter through outcrosses to high performance English Setters.

[Springfield Pointers]

Not all the bad breeders are producing "designer breeds" The sad truth is there are lots of breeders of registered dogs who's first priority is money, not the betterment of the breed or their customers satisfaction. I worry about what I see happening with Golden retrievers here.

Breeds like Labs, Springers and GSP's are probably fine because there is a large enough gene pool with enough variation a skilled breeder can find the raw material to produce the type of dog they want. However, I wonder about some of the rarer breeds? Not sure about in the UK but the Irish Stetter was really finished here as a gundog a few generations ago. It was only reestablished (sort of) as the Red Setter through outcrosses to high performance English Setters.

Great post. I've seen some shocking dogs in the uk from supposed "champion stock" that can't even smell a bacon sandwich a foot to their left, let alone raise their barrel chested bulks from the floor to be bothered take a look, to realise many people have lost the connection with what is required from a decent dog. So much so that they rely on historical results and money to evaluate the quality of the breeding.
*disclaimer. I didn't say "everyone".

[Naj]

SP, In the world of terriers and running dogs I doubt you’d get a purebred dog. They’re all unregistered outcrosses.

Naj

And how are they stabilising or progressing the breed in terms of working genetics? If you're suggesting that consistently outcrossing working pointer genetics, would be in some way positive for development of the progression of the breed, I'd have to argue against your views. But I'd happily buy you a pint and discuss it further...

Not suggesting anything other than some people like to muck about with odd crosses or get kudos from owning them. I don’t really care one way or the other. But I’ll take a rain check on the pint.

Naj

[trekmoor]

Irish setters were still going strong as working dogs last time I looked (about 10 years ago.) Britain though, had long ago treated this breed as it had done labs and spaniels. We split the breeds into work types or show types. The show bred Irish here are big, beautiful and just next door to useless .

The work bred Irish are smaller and far less hairy to the point where you might have to wonder what breed they are ! I know we ridicule and lament the work abilities of the show type gundog breeds but it is possible to resuscitate some of these breeds.

For other people I trained two show winning lab bitches as gundogs and they were pretty good. Their show style of heavy bone and body worked against them but their enthusiasm and their scenting and retrieving powers were very high.

It would be possible to breed show gundogs dogs back to being working dogs if we could be bothered to do it. Just seek out the few among them that do have working abilities and breed only to them ! Discard or cull all the duds for several generations and you'd have a working gundog breed once again.

Wullie

[Springfield Pointers]

The Red Dogs are making a comeback in South Africa. Some very dedicated people out there doing some brilliant stuff with them. Also those people are winning trials with their dogs, which are very productive working dogs too, great to see them competing consistently for the big prizes. Beautiful to watch.

[westcountry]

Irish setters were still going strong as working dogs last time I looked (about 10 years ago.) Britain though, had long ago treated this breed as it had done labs and spaniels. We split the breeds into work types or show types. The show bred Irish here are big, beautiful and just next door to useless .

The work bred Irish are smaller and far less hairy to the point where you might have to wonder what breed they are ! I know we ridicule and lament the work abilities of the show type gundog breeds but it is possible to resuscitate some of these breeds.

For other people I trained two show winning lab bitches as gundogs and they were pretty good. Their show style of heavy bone and body worked against them but their enthusiasm and their scenting and retrieving powers were very high.

It would be possible to breed show gundogs dogs back to being working dogs if we could be bothered to do it. Just seek out the few among them that do have working abilities and breed only to them ! Discard or cull all the duds for several generations and you'd have a working gundog breed once again.

Wullie

Had a Lady come picking up on one of our commercial shoots with two show bred Labradors, she needed a gamekeepers signature to give them some certificate to say they worked before they went to Crufts as working dogs. Both dogs were vastly overweight (she wasnt that light either). The dogs picked nothing all day on a 500 bird day. When the keeper asked her to look for a runner she actually outran her dogs. Needless to say she was never asked back again. But her certificate was signed to say these dogs had worked. JOKE.
On the subject of Irish setters, there is a Lady near me with two. I havent had a conversation with her but when I pass her she is dressed in shooting clothing and carries a game bag.

[Tarimoor]

Had a Lady come picking up on one of our commercial shoots with two show bred Labradors, she needed a gamekeepers signature to give them some certificate to say they worked before they went to Crufts as working dogs. Both dogs were vastly overweight (she wasnt that light either). The dogs picked nothing all day on a 500 bird day. When the keeper asked her to look for a runner she actually outran her dogs. Needless to say she was never asked back again. But her certificate was signed to say these dogs had worked. JOKE.
On the subject of Irish setters, there is a Lady near me with two. I havent had a conversation with her but when I pass her she is dressed in shooting clothing and carries a game bag.

Surely that's the keeper's fault?

I've taken my dogs in the game keepers ring before, but they do work. I'm hoping to take my current pup in at some point, but it won't be for a few years, she's only six months old now. I was at a show with her on Sunday, and, although there were a couple of overweight Labradors there, most were a good weight, although not many had much real muscle on them.

[westcountry]

Why is that the keepers fault? The lady had told him that they were working dogs . Sadly they were not.
Look at the spaniels both cocker and springer. There is a world of difference between the show bred ones. There is also a huge difference in show and working Retrievers, both Labradors and Goldies. Its high time that the showing fraternity stop trying to claim that their dogs can do a real days work.