A blondes attempt at training a Cocker

[Miesque]

Welcome to the world of spaniels, pretty much. He sounds like he's displacing a bit because he's getting bored with retrieves (they should really be limited to a handful 2-3 times a week at this age!), doesn't really understand why he's been told off and he's learning what his nose is for. So an accumulation of things tipping him over the edge

I'd avoid trying to fix anything until you go see the trainer who will be better placed to give you advice seeing the dog in person. Give yourselves both a bit of a break - walk him on a lead or in an enclosed area and practice your recall whistle in the house with high value rewards (roast chicken is a good one!).

[Aimeetess]

When he comes back eventually his tail is between his legs before I even say anything so it’s like he knows he should come back.

Thank you will just carry on until we go to the trainer!

[newf]

No matter how long a dog has been doing his own thing after recall, if he returns, then he has done what I wanted. Don't even let the dog know you're displeased (pissed) through voice or body language. Accept the return with dignity. You have to catch him out THERE and enforce the recall, otherwise keep quiet. The dog has to experience that if he complies, though late, you're safe to approach and he is out of trouble.

[Judy]

When he comes back eventually his tail is between his legs before I even say anything so it’s like he knows he should come back.

Thank you will just carry on until we go to the trainer!

More likely he knows you are annoyed, Cockers are fantastic at reading our body language. Would you go anywhere near someone that chases and scruffs you?

Has he stopped limping? Just wondered as retrieving puts a lot of stress on little legs, I'd lay off it and not practise it more than ten minutes a week tops. If all he wants to do is hunt I'd concentrate on brain work - heel, sit, stay, recall, instead. Much more tiring than exercise and the more exercise you give a dog the more lively and fit it becomes. Basic obedience builds bonds.

[Naj]

It might put things in perspective if you researched critical periods of development, something that all pups go through and which you just have to work through. I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to blame it on being a cocker, all pups go through these problems as they transition through to adult hood. The only thing that will sort them out is training through them. If you’re shouting to no effect then you that’s a clear sign that you’re asking too much of the dog or the distraction level is too great and you need to step back a few levels. But don’t despair, trained responses take masses of proofing and generalisation before they become reliable so you should be thinking in terms of months and years. This is fixable. This is what training a gundog is all about, harnessing that developing natural ability without squashing it or losing control.

Naj

[Aimeetess]

No matter how long a dog has been doing his own thing after recall, if he returns, then he has done what I wanted. Don't even let the dog know you're displeased (pissed) through voice or body language. Accept the return with dignity. You have to catch him out THERE and enforce the recall, otherwise keep quiet. The dog has to experience that if he complies, though late, you're safe to approach and he is out of trouble.

Thanks all. Never thought of it like that, the only time I've told him off is when I've chased and had to actually run/catch him (while whistling and shouting his name still and him totally ignoring me while self-hunting) but I was worried if he doesn't come when called/whistle and I praise when he eventually comes back, he’ll learn to come back when he pleases and not when I ask him too?

Has he stopped limping? Just wondered as retrieving puts a lot of stress on little legs, I'd lay off it and not practise it more than ten minutes a week tops. If all he wants to do is hunt I'd concentrate on brain work - heel, sit, stay, recall, instead. Much more tiring than exercise and the more exercise you give a dog the more lively and fit it becomes. Basic obedience builds bonds.

He’s completely sound now (touch wood) and has been for quite a few weeks, vet was happy to regain normal activity and if he goes lame in a month he’ll be back for hydrotherapy. We do about 15 minutes max training usually 3 days a week or less but only a handful of retrieves, most of it is basic training sit/stay/recall. I think he’s got himself very fit from tons of self-hunting so will reduce this and hopefully he’ll calm down more.

I think you’re right in that he’s very sensitive in some ways and when he can see I’m annoyed he listens less/does his own thing. I’ve been doing more basic sit/stay/recall/seek and letting him free run in an enclosed field with nothing to scent in which he seems to be happy with and responding well.

[Aimeetess]

It might put things in perspective if you researched critical periods of development, something that all pups go through and which you just have to work through. I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to blame it on being a cocker, all pups go through these problems as they transition through to adult hood. The only thing that will sort them out is training through them. If you’re shouting to no effect then you that’s a clear sign that you’re asking too much of the dog or the distraction level is too great and you need to step back a few levels. But don’t despair, trained responses take masses of proofing and generalisation before they become reliable so you should be thinking in terms of months and years. This is fixable. This is what training a gundog is all about, harnessing that developing natural ability without squashing it or losing control.

Naj

Thanks Naj, I suppose I expect him to have a good recall as hes been pretty reliable up until now. Its the sudden change that has upset me.

[Naj]

It also sounds as if you’ve got the management balance all wrong. You seem anxious that you don’t come across as doing too much too soon, perhaps because it’s still common to be berated for not ‘letting a pup be a pup’, whatever that means. You’ve stressed before that you do 10 minutes training and the rest of the time the pup is allowed to be a pup, and now 15 minutes maximum a week, as if that is something virtuous, and from what you say free running and self hunting are what his weekly exercise seems to be his main preoccupation. Not having a dig but I’d suggest that this is where you’re going wrong. You shouldn’t think of training in the sense of a few lessons adding up to x amount of minutes per day/week but more as an ongoing process that you are involved in every time you are with the dog. Your dog should never be allowed to just do it’s own thing free running and self hunting but should always be under your management. The boundaries of free running still have to be set like any other behaviour, even with the youngest of pups, otherwise it just turns into self hunting and then you have a problem on your hands. And as others have said, your dog sounds like it now knows when you are angry and so is reluctant to return. You’re going to have to make it a rewarding experience again. Some of the apparent ignoring you could also be displacement behaviour because it feels unsure if you. But it’s all fixable. Knowledge is power.

Naj

[Aimeetess]

Yes.. I do think I have been limiting his ‘training’ as I’m worried ‘he won’t be a puppy’ and therefore have got into the habit of letting him free run, which the older he has got has turned into free hunting – now he knows what his nose is for.
I find it hard to keep him close when he’s free running which is why I’ve just started to stick to an enclosed field with no scent for a free run. He is either close and full concentrating on me, or away and doing his own thing. To be honest I’m struggling as when hes out, I’m now doing some seek training for treats (getting him to zig zag and turn when I beep twice) heel work, sit and stay work currently as have laid off retrieving but it isn’t enough/long enough to tire him even slightly.. whereas previously I’d do some training then let him tire himself with free running so this is all my own fault really. Now he knows what his nose is for, hes using the free run to free hunt as its fun.

Is there anything else I can add, or to keep his concentration on me when hes out? I take him out with our lab and have started making one sit/stay while I do bits with the other, then let them have some free time together in the enclosed area. I have also started carrying treats with me again, his favourite liver ones, which he is very very keen for.

[Gundogs11]

Which is more fun for him; "free running/hunting" without you or training with you? If he is having more fun without you than with you then I think you might have the answer as to why he doesn't want to come back. Puppy 'training' should be fun. He must see it as games, not training, and you should be the most exciting thing in his world.