Hybrid Retriever

[crackerd]

As Wullie has observed I see huge variation both between and within breeds. With Chesapeake Bay Retrievers there are still lots of dual champions (field and show). But they are not a "pretty" breed and their reputation for surly temperament has kept them from ever being really popular with the show/pet trade. I get the Canadian Breed newsletter and even the advertisements for breeding's of show champions will include a picture with a duck in their mouth.

It seems to me how separated show and field strains of a dog are is a direct function of how "pretty" the breed is.

CC, in our narrowing difference of opinion about performance Labs I hold one truth to be self-evident: That almost any Lab can become a serviceable retriever for our fowling needs if encouraged and...trained. All they gotta be is buoyant and want to get a bird for you. On the Chessie front, are the DCs you're referring to CKC-titled? - not but a handful in my lifetime in the US known to have achieved DC status. Quite a few more gone on to become Ch.-MH, but Master Hunter is a hunt test title prefix sted of FT affix, and the FTCh or FC/AFC out front of the dog's name.

I don’t know about these days but it used to be that some folk worked their show dogs. I knew a guy who was successful at field trials and dog shows with his Pointers. It was also quite common for Flatcoats to be shown and worked. And I remember some springers, Clumbers and Sussex doing both. They weren’t my cup of tea but it pleased their owners and they could honestly claim that they worked their dogs so I don’t see any problem in that. We get a bit precious over this aspect of gundogs, as if we want to keep the working side all to ourselves and it used to be cause for much unnecessary aggravation in clubs where there were working and show sections.

Naj, the spaniel hunt test game has become almost the exclusive province of the show fancy in the US (but not Canada, where it still validates a working gundog). The problem was the program was so lightly subscribed to by actual working dogs and so few show dogs even pretended to work, the program became ultra-inclusive of almost any breed of dog that might stumble upon a bird (flush) and later manage to get the bird in its gob (retrieve). Today the program is called "Flushing Hunt Tests," and it entails everything from Airedales to IWS to poodles. I remember 20 years ago when I put a MH title on my old Sussex girl, the program was in decline and the show fancy would "cherry-pick" tests that required the least performance for the most gain. I ran every test in my area and outside it within reason for travel to get the Master Hunter title, seven tests to get six rosettes needed for that title - and in those seven tests, only went up against a total of 21 dogs (all of other spaniel breeds) at the Master level. Farcical, really - especially when the "last series" of these tests was a water blind retrieve, and in five of her six passes, the Sussex was the only dog to advance that far in the tests. Insofar as not maybe her not being being your cuppa though pleasing the owner, she was the ONLY cuppa on offer...

Back on topic re "hybrid retrievers," I'm surprised in perusing this thread that nobody, particularly Onkel Wilhelm (wullie), has brought up the...http://www.wesslpointer.com/

MG

[Kenjiujon]

As Wullie has observed I see huge variation both between and within breeds. With Chesapeake Bay Retrievers there are still lots of dual champions (field and show). But they are not a "pretty" breed and their reputation for surly temperament has kept them from ever being really popular with the show/pet trade. I get the Canadian Breed newsletter and even the advertisements for breeding's of show champions will include a picture with a duck in their mouth.

It seems to me how separated show and field strains of a dog are is a direct function of how "pretty" the breed is.

CC, in our narrowing difference of opinion about performance Labs I hold one truth to be self-evident: That almost any Lab can become a serviceable retriever for our fowling needs if encouraged and...trained. All they gotta be is buoyant and want to get a bird for you. On the Chessie front, are the DCs you're referring to CKC-titled? - not but a handful in my lifetime in the US known to have achieved DC status. Quite a few more gone on to become Ch.-MH, but Master Hunter is a hunt test title prefix sted of FT affix, and the FTCh or FC/AFC out front of the dog's name.

I don’t know about these days but it used to be that some folk worked their show dogs. I knew a guy who was successful at field trials and dog shows with his Pointers. It was also quite common for Flatcoats to be shown and worked. And I remember some springers, Clumbers and Sussex doing both. They weren’t my cup of tea but it pleased their owners and they could honestly claim that they worked their dogs so I don’t see any problem in that. We get a bit precious over this aspect of gundogs, as if we want to keep the working side all to ourselves and it used to be cause for much unnecessary aggravation in clubs where there were working and show sections.

Naj, the spaniel hunt test game has become almost the exclusive province of the show fancy in the US (but not Canada, where it still validates a working gundog). The problem was the program was so lightly subscribed to by actual working dogs and so few show dogs even pretended to work, the program became ultra-inclusive of almost any breed of dog that might stumble upon a bird (flush) and later manage to get the bird in its gob (retrieve). Today the program is called "Flushing Hunt Tests," and it entails everything from Airedales to IWS to poodles. I remember 20 years ago when I put a MH title on my old Sussex girl, the program was in decline and the show fancy would "cherry-pick" tests that required the least performance for the most gain. I ran every test in my area and outside it within reason for travel to get the Master Hunter title, seven tests to get six rosettes needed for that title - and in those seven tests, only went up against a total of 21 dogs (all of other spaniel breeds) at the Master level. Farcical, really - especially when the "last series" of these tests was a water blind retrieve, and in five of her six passes, the Sussex was the only dog to advance that far in the tests. Insofar as not maybe her not being being your cuppa though pleasing the owner, she was the ONLY cuppa on offer...

Back on topic re "hybrid retrievers," I'm surprised in perusing this thread that nobody, particularly Onkel Wilhelm (wullie), has brought up the...http://www.wesslpointer.com/

MG

Well big thank you guys for posting all of these post. Honestly I like the argument that has taken place since it provides trully a lot of information about hybrid retrievers. I came along this thread after googling about the topic.

Bunch of useful information found since while learning about this for the rates a few of these designer breeders get I 'd want to make sure what I'm getting. My most significant concern with them would be the repeatability of these breedings. I've seen some big running flushers.

I would never ever believe a lab GSP cross wouldn't be an enjoyable canine to be around. I've seen some that were excellent looking too.

[Contender]

Just so you're all aware, a 'Hybrid' is when you cross two different species like horse & donkey and wolf & dog. Crossing two different dog breeds is simply a 'cross' or a 'mongrel'

Natasha

[trekmoor]

Yer a spoilsport ! Breeders can charge more for pups labelled as hybrids than they can for pups labelled as mongrels !

It is a fact however that ALL dogs were derived from mongrels.

I have seen Labs x pointers(ENGLISH) working on the grouse moors and I liked them very much . They were deliberately bred at one time.

Wullie

[munstyman]

Just so you're all aware, a 'Hybrid' is when you cross two different species like horse & donkey and wolf & dog. Crossing two different dog breeds is simply a 'cross' or a 'mongrel'

Natasha

Like I said Natasha, marketing crap! Probably derived from the usage of `hybrid vigour' when used to justify out crosses and vilify line breeding. What makes me smile is why would you want a GSPxLab anyway? There are plenty of well bred working GSP lines which a Lab would not bring anything useful to ..... If it needed anything from a lab perspective then it wouldn't be a good dog to breed from in the first place!.... its an all round general purpose gundog by design

[CockerCanuck]

As Wullie has observed I see huge variation both between and within breeds. With Chesapeake Bay Retrievers there are still lots of dual champions (field and show). But they are not a "pretty" breed and their reputation for surly temperament has kept them from ever being really popular with the show/pet trade. I get the Canadian Breed newsletter and even the advertisements for breeding's of show champions will include a picture with a duck in their mouth.

It seems to me how separated show and field strains of a dog are is a direct function of how "pretty" the breed is.

CC, in our narrowing difference of opinion about performance Labs I hold one truth to be self-evident: That almost any Lab can become a serviceable retriever for our fowling needs if encouraged and...trained. All they gotta be is buoyant and want to get a bird for you. On the Chessie front, are the DCs you're referring to CKC-titled? - not but a handful in my lifetime in the US known to have achieved DC status. Quite a few more gone on to become Ch.-MH, but Master Hunter is a hunt test title prefix sted of FT affix, and the FTCh or FC/AFC out front of the dog's name.

I don’t know about these days but it used to be that some folk worked their show dogs. I knew a guy who was successful at field trials and dog shows with his Pointers. It was also quite common for Flatcoats to be shown and worked. And I remember some springers, Clumbers and Sussex doing both. They weren’t my cup of tea but it pleased their owners and they could honestly claim that they worked their dogs so I don’t see any problem in that. We get a bit precious over this aspect of gundogs, as if we want to keep the working side all to ourselves and it used to be cause for much unnecessary aggravation in clubs where there were working and show sections.

Naj, the spaniel hunt test game has become almost the exclusive province of the show fancy in the US (but not Canada, where it still validates a working gundog). The problem was the program was so lightly subscribed to by actual working dogs and so few show dogs even pretended to work, the program became ultra-inclusive of almost any breed of dog that might stumble upon a bird (flush) and later manage to get the bird in its gob (retrieve). Today the program is called "Flushing Hunt Tests," and it entails everything from Airedales to IWS to poodles. I remember 20 years ago when I put a MH title on my old Sussex girl, the program was in decline and the show fancy would "cherry-pick" tests that required the least performance for the most gain. I ran every test in my area and outside it within reason for travel to get the Master Hunter title, seven tests to get six rosettes needed for that title - and in those seven tests, only went up against a total of 21 dogs (all of other spaniel breeds) at the Master level. Farcical, really - especially when the "last series" of these tests was a water blind retrieve, and in five of her six passes, the Sussex was the only dog to advance that far in the tests. Insofar as not maybe her not being being your cuppa though pleasing the owner, she was the ONLY cuppa on offer...

Back on topic re "hybrid retrievers," I'm surprised in perusing this thread that nobody, particularly Onkel Wilhelm (wullie), has brought up the...http://www.wesslpointer.com/

MG

You are right MG I was using the "Champion" designation too loosely. Most of the show Chessies I see ads for breeding have show titles and Test (not trial) titles. Although my Hamish's grand-sire was a true Dual Champion and an AKC one to boot

[crackerd]

And the gold standard for Chessie breeding, CC - no question. My bro' on the other hand just got a direct "kineage" pup to the high-point show Chessie this year whose owner (but not show handler, as he ain't blonde enough) trains with one of my groups infrequently. Pretty may be as pretty does, but there's also no question that's one luuuuvly canine critter who moves well afield when he gets the chance.

On the "other" other hand, the Boykin is one of them hybrid retrievers (also known by some as "the townhouse Chessie" or the mini-Chessie - that has gone into the show ring relatively recently. Which ain't a bad thing from where I sit 'cause breeding practices and standards have improved with AKC entry. And they're always going to do their thing afield as well, if only because of that... "hybrid vigahhhh" as we used to say in Maine (and Alabama, if we knew what "vigor" meant...).

0962.jpg

MG

[Judy]

What makes me smile is why would you want a GSPxLab anyway? There are plenty of well bred working GSP lines which a Lab would not bring anything useful to ..... If it needed anything from a lab perspective then it wouldn't be a good dog to breed from in the first place!.... its an all round general purpose gundog by design

Oooo don't tempt me! I can think of many ways in which a Lab could improve a GSP. Offspring could well be quieter, softer mouthed, more intelligent, more trainable and less aggressive... Just for starters.

[Springfield Pointers]

... That depends what you mean by "improve", Judy. A lab would totally detract from what we breed GSP's for. Why would you want to dull down a GSP for? If you want a dog to do a Lab's job, why look to a GSP anyway?

[westcountry]

Different breeds have evolved to display different characteristics and do different jobs. I fail to see how Labrador blood could improve a pointer for the job a pointer does and vice versa. I saw some one the other day asking if anyone had a litter of cockerdors for sale.