Improving the breed..........

[Judy]

I think the Hmmms were merely an expression of uncertainty regarding your statement regarding the top sires not covering shooting bitches, from what I've seen and heard money often comes before thought when it comes to allowing a stud dog to be used. Nothing to do with mating good shooting bitches whatsoever, all credit to anyone who has a good bitch and wants to perpetuate the line regardless of whether or not it has Trial wins, we can't all trial our dogs, there isn't room in the trial world and it would be a sad old place if only trial winning dogs were allowed to be bred from. I do think anyone who refuses to allow his stud to be used should have the grace to say why not, plain good manners even if he should simply say he doesn't like your bitches pedigree or whatever. At least you would know.

Judy

[Rothievale]

A difficult one. First of all we have to see what an ESS truly is: A roughshooting dog. All the other jobs he has to do, are not realy what he is made and bred for. Field trials are the only way to compare dogs in approx the same conditions. The problem is that these conditions aren't good anymore. Modern trials do not favour the true hunting machine. To much importance is put in obedience, training, handling,... and not enough in the basic spaniel quality : Hunting. Bad trials, bad judges, bad judging destroyed the breed.
The championship is the showroom to sell dogs for a lot of money to rich Americans or Japanese. Moneywolves changed trialing to make money. Lots of money.
Trials should be run on grounds with wild birds only. This would mean one find every 2 or 3 dogs, but after a while you would see that always the same dogs have blank runs. Gamefindingability?? Retrieving should be basic. Take every dog within 20 metres of the fall of the game. Do everything to favour the hunting machine, the dog that prefers to hunt over anything else. The true spaniel should hunt after scenting a bird or rabbit 2 or 3 times and at young age. At 6/8 months after seeing a few birds you should be with your 2 feet on the brakes all the time. The problem is : These dogs are so hard to find now and they existed many years ago. Did wrong selection ruined the breed? Probably it did.
If you find a hunting machine breed to him, even if he is not a champion. Always put fire on fire and try to linebreed to these hunting machines. Do not breed to those soft kittens.
Just like Kelco, I like the breed and always have in between 5 and 10 spaniels. Just like him I struggle to find "the" dogs that we need to improve the breed. I am constantly looking to improve, but it's very difficult.

Brilliant post Hales Smut. Indeed money is ruining the breed and the fixation of selling the crap FTWs and FTChs abroad for thousands, keeping the better ones in the UK but earning a ridiculous amount of money in stud fees, often to poor bitches. Some of these FTChs have had so much game (rabbits alot of the time) shot for them turning any soft average dog into hunting machine but the raw material was actually nothing special. That is why I like to see a dog as a youngster without game and it's hunting attitude before it has had heaps of game shot for it.

Someone else's point earlier, breeding hot to hot does alot of good for improving the trialling spaniel but it's not just trialling people that want a spaniel (in fact they are the minority) it is the average joe bloggs, beater, rough shooting, young lad just starting out, cannot hold or manage a hard hunting spaniel so where does that leave us? Surely we have to think of matching spaniel types to owners. Maybe we should have 3 different breeds of ESS, the working/trialling line, the working/working line and the show line!

[trekmoor]

As one of the Hmmmm posters I'd like to say this was not directed at your bitch or anyone elses. It just expressed my doubts about most of the stud dog owners turning down a possible stud fee.

Wullie

[Pink Gundog]

Not being a breeder or ever intending to be, BUT who decides who/what does indeed improve the breed for true improvent of a breed?? Is it not very much a personal opinion?? It must have to be down to those who have numerous dogs to trial & test on their own dogs to see true results surley. Also in one person eyes could be perfection but in anothers not be. I personally think breeding is a mine field and no one is 100% guaranteed what they are gonna get, yes if experienced they will have a rough idea of what they are gonna get. This is again why I think breeding should be left to the experts I think some should leave breeding well alone

[pontbeck]

Breeding is a personal thing and opinions differ. However, if we only relied on the `experts `( I hate that word ) to breed what would happen when the`re dead and gone? We need up and coming people to carry on and how are they to gain experience other than to put their thoughts into practice by choosing stud dogs to put to their bitches. We only get experience by making mistakes and which of us can say they haven`t made one.

Bill

[Pink Gundog]

Breeding is a personal thing and opinions differ. However, if we only relied on the `experts `( I hate that word ) to breed what would happen when the`re dead and gone? We need up and coming people to carry on and how are they to gain experience other than to put their thoughts into practice by choosing stud dogs to put to their bitches. We only get experience by making mistakes and which of us can say they haven`t made one.

Bill

I agree with you Bill and possibly the word expert is not the right word, maybe the word im looking for is "The right person to breed" There are sooooo many breeding out there just cause and its a topic that is very close to my heart as im involved with gundog rescue's who rehome hundreds a year. I was meaning experts only to breed being the ones who offer every back up for dogs who become a problem or unable to be kept by future owners. I know the gundog trainer I work with will take back any dog regardless of reason and thats what I think every dog breeder should offer. What does it matter that one is breeding the right dog if the right home for all those pups isnt correct!! It all goes down the tubes if that doesnt fit!!

[kelco]

Breeding is a personal thing and opinions differ. However, if we only relied on the `experts `( I hate that word ) to breed what would happen when the`re dead and gone? We need up and coming people to carry on and how are they to gain experience other than to put their thoughts into practice by choosing stud dogs to put to their bitches. We only get experience by making mistakes and which of us can say they haven`t made one.

Bill

I agree Bill.

I started shooting a long time ago(in a land far,far away..... sorry!) over Irish water spaniels.I was a young pup that had my uncle tortured to bring shooting.Unfortunetly he was a raving alcoholic and though was a shooting man chose the pub over shooting when ever he had the money.But one his best mates took me under his wing when saw that I had an interest.He bred and trained Irish Water Spaniels.These dogs were absolute crackers.(they hunted cover light a freight train,swam the river hunting the reeds as we walked the shore for miles,sat in water night after night up to there necks and retrieved every duck that we could shoot,you could not get to the end of these dogs stamina-some of my best memories of gun dogs are due to him and his dogs)these dogs were trained using the first edition of Peter Moxons' book and in my view now(with a bit more experience now-to trial standard/very close).He bred from old stock and produced dogs of great quality and I remember him putting pups on a plane out of the country when it was unheard of.He wasn't a trial person but bred for what he thought was perfection.(and I think that he went a long way to putting quality water spaniels on the ground).Him and his dogs are gone out of shooting now but I like to think that he did his bit to improve things.And I admire anyone for that. (be they trial or shooting people/or both)

[Hepe]

I started shooting a long time ago(in a land far,far away..... sorry!) over Irish water spaniels.I was a young pup that had my uncle tortured to bring shooting.Unfortunetly he was a raving alcoholic and though was a shooting man chose the pub over shooting when ever he had the money.But one his best mates took me under his wing when saw that I had an interest.He bred and trained Irish Water Spaniels.These dogs were absolute crackers.(they hunted cover light a freight train,swam the river hunting the reeds as we walked the shore for miles,sat in water night after night up to there necks and retrieved every duck that we could shoot,you could not get to the end of these dogs stamina-some of my best memories of gun dogs are due to him and his dogs)these dogs were trained using the first edition of Peter Moxons' book and in my view now(with a bit more experience now-to trial standard/very close).He bred from old stock and produced dogs of great quality and I remember him putting pups on a plane out of the country when it was unheard of.He wasn't a trial person but bred for what he thought was perfection.(and I think that he went a long way to putting quality water spaniels on the ground).Him and his dogs are gone out of shooting now but I like to think that he did his bit to improve things.And I admire anyone for that. (be they trial or shooting people/or both)

Oh, i would love to know more about those IWS. Any stories you got would be highly appreciated. You don't happen to know about the pedigrees? I have to laugh because one of the few training books i got is Moxons, not a bible to me but i flip some pages at bedtime betimes, checking that i go right with the current youngster.

Helene

[pontbeck]

Pink Gundog
I`ve spent 20 mins typing a reply only for it to be swallowed up by the computer but basically what I was saying is that I agree with you, that rescue is an enormous problem and breeding should not be undertaken without careful thought.

Bill

[PERCE]

Pink Gundog
I`ve spent 20 mins typing a reply only for it to be swallowed up by the computer but basically what I was saying is that I agree with you, that rescue is an enormous problem and breeding should not be undertaken without careful thought.

Bill

Problem is, not many people actually bother to do anything that involves thinking.