It's all about the training!

[munstyman]

You should train for what you want ... or what you may want further down the line
The whole sitting present has really come out of competition and wanting to give your dog an edge over the competition. However I do wonder in HPR competitions if the time would be better spent just getting the delivery to hand The other thing about assessing dogs in both training classes and competition is a trainer/judge will use exercises to better assess other aspects of a dogs nature, be it obedience, temperament or focus. ( Aptitude testing - Where Natural ability and trained ability arguments often get confused ).
I've always advocated training as much as you can when you can ( when the dog is young and receptive to new ideas ) As Judy mentioned I also train things separately bring them together only when, as individual exercises they are done right. This way you leave your options in the future open and also where things are unnecessary in situations, you don't have to use them.
You can of course train `old dogs new tricks' , and I find this a useful stimuli for the quiet out of season times to keep the dogs mind active and go a little way to preventing the dog finding things to `learn' that might be counter productive to its training

[Nickheref]

The slight problem I have with it I see people obsessing over it and causing all sorts of other issues when in my view they should be seeking a quick pick up and straight delivery, I see many slowing down or spitting the retrieve out on the way in due to pressure put on them for the sitting delivery which is less important, to me at least, than a quick delivery to hand.

My two youngsters are a bit of a case in point, one dry land with no nasty cover the dog is straight in with a sitting delivery head held high giving it to me - looks great but I never really taught it or insisted on it, it is just his way of doing it, his sister is straight in and gives it to me but I am sure if I started to pressure her to sit she would fight it and it might cause her to circle or slow up coming in. In thick cover or standing in water he just gives it to me whilst standing and I don't worry about it. Last Friday the bitch picked a difficult runner in horrible conditions after a long hunt and I didn't care if she sat, danced or did headstands once she had given it to me! I did a little dance though!

Having said that the dog was always much happier to give me anything he had picked up whereas the bitch was a bit jealous of her finds when a youngster - coke tins, antlers, plant pots etc.

[Kibble]

Many thanks all.
Thought provoking as always.

Re steadiness; have you taught Mia to sit and stay as a separate exercise? Will she sit while you walk away from her and back / walk around her? These days we do fun chase retrieves separate from general obedience then when my dog is good and staying put I bring the two together, I've found this to work well for me and my Cockers.

Mmm yes, but not enough!
I have done plenty of sit practice in the garden, but usually with a placeboard. I believe that, in the hands of expert trainers, placeboards are a tool for use with puppies. However, Mia still finds placeboard games fun and I like the communication certainty.

Sit on the beach also works well. Sit in the field or woods 'needs work!' I think this context thing is a very important concept for a novice trainer to appreciate.

Mind, the woods I am currently using have nettles and brambles, which is not conducive to sit! These woods are really only usable at this time of year.

Because Mia sits on the placeboard without being told, I get a nice sit, wait, fetch when sent, and deliver to hand of a selected dummy in this context, which feels great.
Elsewhere, as long as the dummy comes back, without too much messing about, I don't ask for a sit, but she does sometimes.

Maybe I should replace the placeboard with a small mat and then no mat. I just don't want to go backwards again

Having said that the dog was always much happier to give me anything he had picked up whereas the bitch was a bit jealous of her finds when a youngster - coke tins, antlers, plant pots etc.

.
It is quite a long walk from the fields and part of this is on lead, so sometimes I give Mia a dummy to carry home. It stops her picking up treasures. However, recently, she has taken to giving me these litter finds, which I see as an improvement. I still wouldn't trust her with a bird. I know she would pick it up, handing it over is another matter.

You should train for what you want ... or what you may want further down the line

So, I wanted a dog to make going for a walk necessary and fun. I got more than I expected. I still don't know where it's going and training is all back to front.

I've always advocated training as much as you can when you can ( when the dog is young and receptive to new ideas )
You can of course train `old dogs new tricks' , and I find this a useful stimuli for the quiet out of season times to keep the dogs mind active and go a little way to preventing the dog finding things to `learn' that might be counter productive to its training

I am finding training more enjoyable now that I get longer concentration from Mia. I think she is still young enough to learn, it's just that every thing is 'if she feels like it' and as long as there are no game birds close. One end of the field is fine, but I ventured too far the other day and she picked up an irresistible scent.
Fortunately, there are fewer pheasant about now and I have the off season to do better.

[Naj]

Just some food for thought on ‘sitting’ and the ‘if she feels like it’ conundrum. ‘Steadiness is a state of mind’ used to be one of my favourite sayings, but I’ve come to realise that all training is down to the state of mind of the dog. The dog has to buy-in to the training and be emotionally involved in it, one way or another. Traditionally the ‘sit command’ was considered as one of the cornerstones of training, but ‘sit’ in itself is just a physical contrivance with no bearing on the subsequent behaviour of the dog in different contexts. Plenty of dogs that pull when hunting, chase game or run-in to retrieve will sit nicely to command in the right context. It’s the mindset of the dog that makes the difference, not the ‘trained position’. There’s no intrinsic magic in a sit command other than what we’ve managed to effectively train into it. That’s why I no longer train for a ‘sit’. I train for a ‘stop’ and let the dog choose what position it is most comfortable with. And it’s not the cornerstone of my training but just an addendum for rather than use a sit/stop command to stop the dog from doing stuff I’d rather it didn’t do I find it easier to use those environmental triggers to cue the response that I do want, whether that’s a stop or a return to me or a ‘just ignore it’. Consequently, I shoot over my dog two or three times a week right through the season without the need, or use, of a specific stop/sit command. I often forget my whistle and it’s no big deal because I’m not reliant on it. I shoot alone a have no interest in competition and that maybe gives me more freedom, so not for everyone, perhaps, but I mention it to show that these things can be done.

Doing stuff ‘if she feels like it’. This comes down to engagement and context again. She’ll do stuff in one context but not in another. That's because under some contexts you lose engagement. And that’s because she’s primarily being motivated by external stimuli when in that environment. When we’re with our dogs we’re always competing with other environmental reinforcers that are freely available to them, each one with the potential to cue stuff we don’t want, like running off to investigate fresh pheasant scent they’ve caught a whiff of on the wind. But luckily for us dogs are able to discriminate between these competing ‘triggers’ and do so all the time, so we can manipulate things so that they choose to discriminate in favour of us. Which brings us back to engagement again. Rather than concentrating on ‘training’ a sit command, as is the traditionally suggested remedy, you’d be better spending your time on learning how to develop engagement in increasingly distracting environments and in maintaining motivation so the dog is more interested in working with you than in anything else. Then the training bit becomes easy because your dog is choosing to work with you rather than be distracted by anything else. If you like, you metaphorically develop an engagement bubble in which the dog is motivated by doing stuff with you and you can then take that bubble anywhere, gradually exposing it to more distracting environments. And whenever the dog steps outside it you go back a few steps, get it re-engaged and re-motivated, back in your bubble again, and then continue, perhaps more slowly this time. If you’re interested in the psychobabble, Motivating Operations is a start.

[PRH]

I hadn't thought like that about the sit Naj, interesting perspective. I was doing a bit with Ginger recently working on steadiness and using the starting pistol. He stopped budging and was rewarded for staying still. I moved him closer each time and started to throw dummies out at the same time. We then moved on to retrieving whilst also firing the pistol and throwing a dummy out, so lots of moving parts. If I hadn't had him at sit I'd have had less confidence in him staying put, but I can see from what you are saying that is just habit really, not need to enforce the sit.

[Naj]

I hadn't thought like that about the sit Naj, interesting perspective. I was doing a bit with Ginger recently working on steadiness and using the starting pistol. He stopped budging and was rewarded for staying still. I moved him closer each time and started to throw dummies out at the same time. We then moved on to retrieving whilst also firing the pistol and throwing a dummy out, so lots of moving parts. If I hadn't had him at sit I'd have had less confidence in him staying put, but I can see from what you are saying that is just habit really, not need to enforce the sit.

Dogs can run in no matter the position. Some claim that down position is even safer than sit but we all know that a dog is capable of running-in if they have a mind to, no matter if they are in stand, sit or down position, or even if they have been steady all season! ‘Sit’ is really a throwback to the traditional command based approach. It gives the handler a measure of perceived control over the dog and something specific to correct, if and when it fails. And it takes away any choice from the dog, which sounds great for somebody intent on ‘controlling’ it.

It sounds very logical to a human, ‘sit means sit’, but from looking at how dogs struggle with this concept it’s obviously not so logical to them. That’s because, I would suggest , that “NO, don’t do that” is a human concept and dogs only think in terms of behaviour. But everything we do when interacting with dogs has a long history of reinforcement (or punishment) behind it. Presumably your sit command has had more successes in the past than failures, so you stick with it and feel naked without it. But it’s the emotional state of the dog that defines whether it is truly comfortable with being ‘steady’ or not, otherwise you’re just holding it with a fragile ‘sit’ command.

[munstyman]

E by heck that was some of Naj's best work up there i those two posts
It was only that last bit I started to get itchy fingers, but once again it is more of `you say po ta to and I say potato ' from my perspective.
I mean does a dog really struggle with the concept of sit ? As a behavior associated with the command when trained? I certainly have not found it so. It may not be a natural thing to do for them in certain circumstances, and who knows how they `understand ' it, but as most volunteer it where it benefits or leads to benefits, then there is an argument that they must then gain a concept, even if that is a different understanding of the concept from ours.( the stop )
I think I've always made clear that I train the sit ( for the stop ) as it gives me the edge in that training. If the dog goes on to `adjust' it to a simple stop and stand I will see it for what it is and use it. BUT temptation in the field is a powerful little devil, and can spring up at the most un opportune moments of the dogs training and as such I want to see a solid action of sit to that temptation ( and give me that extra second to intervene and cast thee from temptation ) before I am secure in that that particular temptation has the dog resisting it and therefore a simple stop is sufficient i.e proofed.
The sit for delivery is once again one of those training aids that seem to have become a requirement rather than just used as a training aid. Just like the sit/stop it gives you as the trainer more options as if a dogs arse is on the floor it isn't moving. So no parading, No come and try and take it from me game, and more focus.
In my experience a dog will move the boundaries of its training throughout its life to what it is most comfortable with. As a shooting/working companion what you will get as a pleasure or a pain, very much depends on where you set the boundaries in the first place, how rewarding you make them, and how fast you let the dog decide those that are not working for it and then opt to change them, and if your going to accept those changes if they also benefit you.
The itch has been scratched, whether it helps kibble or not who knows

[Naj]

Oops, I’ve blotted me copybook, again!

Apologies for not being clearer. I was following on from the earlier theme on steadiness. Yes, dogs understand sit with a bit of training, just as they do any other behaviour. What I was trying to say was that they struggle with the (human?) concept of Don’t. Don’t run-in/don’t chase/don’t do anything I don’t want you to do, which is frequently (and traditionally) imposed through enforcement of the sit command. My contention was that dogs don’t have to sit to be steady and that sitting to flush, wing or fall is no guarantee of steadiness. What is more important is the mindset/emotional state of the dog.

[ips]

E by heck that was some of Naj's best work up there i those two posts
It was only that last bit I started to get itchy fingers, but once again it is more of `you say po ta to and I say potato ' from my perspective.
I mean does a dog really struggle with the concept of sit ? As a behavior associated with the command when trained? I certainly have not found it so. It may not be a natural thing to do for them in certain circumstances, and who knows how they `understand ' it, but as most volunteer it where it benefits or leads to benefits, then there is an argument that they must then gain a concept, even if that is a different understanding of the concept from ours.( the stop )
I think I've always made clear that I train the sit ( for the stop ) as it gives me the edge in that training. If the dog goes on to `adjust' it to a simple stop and stand I will see it for what it is and use it. BUT temptation in the field is a powerful little devil, and can spring up at the most un opportune moments of the dogs training and as such I want to see a solid action of sit to that temptation ( and give me that extra second to intervene and cast thee from temptation ) before I am secure in that that particular temptation has the dog resisting it and therefore a simple stop is sufficient i.e proofed.
The sit for delivery is once again one of those training aids that seem to have become a requirement rather than just used as a training aid. Just like the sit/stop it gives you as the trainer more options as if a dogs arse is on the floor it isn't moving. So no parading, No come and try and take it from me game, and more focus.
In my experience a dog will move the boundaries of its training throughout its life to what it is most comfortable with. As a shooting/working companion what you will get as a pleasure or a pain, very much depends on where you set the boundaries in the first place, how rewarding you make them, and how fast you let the dog decide those that are not working for it and then opt to change them, and if your going to accept those changes if they also benefit you.
The itch has been scratched, whether it helps kibble or not who knows

Great post

[Kibble]

The sit conundrum

Just some food for thought on ‘sitting’....
Traditionally the ‘sit command’ was considered as one of the cornerstones of training, but ‘sit’ in itself is just a physical contrivance with no bearing on the subsequent behaviour of the dog in different contexts.
That’s why I no longer train for a ‘sit’. I train for a ‘stop’ and let the dog choose what position it is most comfortable with. And it’s not the cornerstone of my training but just an addendum

I guess that for a novice, 'sit' seems easy to teach (or reward when offered). It feels like a start on training success and communication with your puppy. Mia was such a busy pup that any hint of stillness was welcome, especially if associated with eye contact.
Using a placeboard, or mat, seems to reinforce 'sit'. Mia still bounces onto the placeboard as soon as I put it down and I wish I had used this tool earlier.

When I had a cat, she used to sit on the step and have a good look round before venturing out. I taught Mia to do this, rather than the inconvenient 'I go through the door first' scenario. Sometimes when I stop on a walk, Mia will come and sit/wait beside me. For example, I stopped on the beach the other day, to let two boisterous boxer type dogs, that were playing roughly together, get well ahead, so we could avoid them. Mia sat and waited beside me for quite a long time. She chose to sit, (no lead) but it was the waiting that mattered. I don't want her to be frightened of other dogs, but no point in inviting conflict. She doesn't need to play with boxers, or any other stranger's dogs.

I wish I had known that I could teach 'stop' (at a distance) earlier. It still feels cool. As I see it now 'stop' has more associated 'what next' options than 'sit', or maybe just longer before the cue. Eg Stop, wait until I catch up. Stop, wait and recall. Stop, wait and retrieve to direction. Stop, wait and then walk on. It means I have a chance of avoiding her anticipating 'what comes next', and keeping her focussed.

I can't stop her when she catches game scent yet, although there is something about the distance involved. When I can hear far away pheasants, she will notice, but not run.

Just some food for thought on the ‘if she feels like it’ conundrum.

Doing stuff ‘if she feels like it’. This comes down to engagement and context again......

If you like, you metaphorically develop an engagement bubble in which the dog is motivated by doing stuff with you and you can then take.....

If you’re interested in the psychobabble, Motivating Operations is a start.

The concept of a portable engagement bubble is very appealing. It implies that I just need to work on engagement in manageable places, and eventually I will have a more robust bubble, so more places become manageable.

Oh course I am interested in the psycobabble. Google has found me a couple of podcasts on Motivating Operations to concentrate on.
I know Mia came highly pre-programmed to seek game. This impulse may have been inadvertently enhanced by early exposure, but I am sure a strong impulse was inbred in her. I have learnt a lot about pheasants.

I think steadiness will be a constant struggle with this busy little dog.