Stopping to flush of the real thing

[ips]

Aimee
I know all about frustration in the heat of the moment however the way i read it is that he did actually leave it as commanded so maybe it was an ideal opportunity to praise that specific action . If it was me i would have got either a turn or a recall whistle on him the moment he stopped in order to break him physically and mentally away from the bird.
But of course i could be talking twaddle as i just muddle along

[Springfield Pointers]

Judy
Ha, i love honest accounts of less than acceptable behaviour it gives perspective to relative novices such as myself.

You been at this for 3 years... You can no longer be considered a novice.

[ips]

Judy
Ha, i love honest accounts of less than acceptable behaviour it gives perspective to relative novices such as myself.

You been at this for 3 years... You can no longer be considered a novice.

Ok, . I do sometimes think i have something to offer but always worried that i may come across wrong.

[Aimeetess]

Judy
Ha, i love honest accounts of less than acceptable behaviour it gives perspective to relative novices such as myself.

You been at this for 3 years... You can no longer be considered a novice.

Ok, . I do sometimes think i have something to offer but always worried that i may come across wrong.

I was going to say IPS you’re definitely not a novice anymore and have given me some great advice!

True.. maybe I should of praised however he done it twice. The first time I didn’t tell him off as significantly as the second time he done it.
The first time he done it, he came back I growled and he cowered we walked down the field and hunted to find a duck nicely. He gave the dead duck to hand nicely just as another flew into the field tired from flying, then he shot off within 0.2 seconds and ignored everything again which is why he got the smack, once I wouldn’t of minded but twice!

[ips]

Thank you Aimee.
Its very frustrating i understand totally. One second everything tickety boo then a second later dog has lost its head. Maybe when its going well we as handlers inadvertently drop our guard. MM gave me some great advice a few years ago when i was in a similar position to you, the words have stayed with me and i always refer back to them in times of trouble. It was on the lines of keeping the dog simmering and turning the heat off or removing the heat entirely before the pan (dog) boils over, in other words its a case of forever reading the dog and only experience can give us this understanding.
The other thing that the forum gave me and again one that stays with me is SP's birds train bird dogs. You absolutely need birds and in your case rabbit in order to train anything reliable, find birds and bunnies and train from the begining

[Springcopse spaniels]

Thanks for all the comments. We’ve been working SO hard on the stop and recall with rabbits, on a long extension lead so he can’t feel it but I have control. He flushes and I yank him so he stops, but without that lead he’d 100% try and chase!

Today we picked up on our shoot. He sat quietly waiting, on the first drive he found a partridge in cover that wasn’t hit (gun said he hit it and it was dead) and he chased it, he came back to recall once he flew off so didn’t mind that to much and hunted a nice bit of grass for a bird which wasn’t there.

Second drive was the ducks, he’s never picked ducks before but lots landed and excitement levels were high. I waited until the end of the drive he picked 2 perfectly and was working the lab as well who also picked 2, we then sweeped the drive as a duck came in to land so we kept away and kept a close eye on him. My cocker was working to the whistle quartering across the field, he saw it and was GONE. I did not expect him to ever chase a duck and he’s fed the ducks with me weekly and never even thought about it. I legged it after him as he ignored everything, he got to it and just looked at me and the duck not touching it, so I grabbed him and yes he did get a smack.

I made him heel and took him away from that area to hunt (on open grass with brambles) down the other end of the field for another dead duck. He hunted nice on the whistle, found the duck delivered to hand and just as I went to put him on the lead he was only a foot away from me when another duck came to land and my cocker saw it from the other side of the field, he was gone, and he’s incredibilty fast.

This time all the guns saw and were shouting he’s gonna peg it, I chased him across the field in witness of everyone.. as again he ignored every whistle or me shouting, he didn’t peg it he just stopped looking at it. Again, he got another smack and sorry to say it was a hard smack. He wasn’t tired as didn’t do much so put it down to excitement and high drive.

One of the guns (who had a untrained fat lab who just ran riot the entire drive picking random birds in front of us) made a snark comment ‘who trained that dog’ and I broke down into tears shamefully and walked back to the car, We watched the last drive but he remained on a lead.

It upset me someone that has no idea on gundogs and he comments on mine, maybe it was suppose to be funny but it was said in front of everyone at the wrong time.

I have no idea how to get him to stop chasing things, it’s suddenly got worse even though we have been working on it so much every day. I now am seriously considering the e collar.
He is a smart dog but suddenly the reward is the chase and he tends to know if he’s on a lead. He doesn’t care about being chased down and grabbed, tail still wags.. he’s such a hard stubborn dog. He just wants to please me but am now completely stuck on how to go forward.

Clearly the dog is not fit for prime time. Have you as i think i suggested visited a flying pen yet
Until you do something you will be deeper in the shit and an even bigger hill to climb. Have you been to any of tge trainers i suggested to you
The trouble with forums ia people ask for advice and is duly given, some better than others and people trudge on regardless hoping to muddle through

Can you explain by not fit for prime time? As in mentally? As physically he is one of the fittest spaniels I’ve seen but I’m guessing you mean not fit to work pretty much.

I haven’t been able to find a flying pen.. and I’ve not been to any of those trainers you suggested however I did go to John Cooks apprentice as apparently John doesn’t do many lessons anymore . I can’t say he gave us any help and cost a lot. Im honest and right now I don’t have the funds for any lessons, my horse has been sick and cost me a fortune in vet fees in the last few weeks I can just about afford to eat so have no money for a lesson.

I have been going along with all the advice given by the forum and appreciate it all, your advice on being quick after him (as I was sloppy to catch him you said) when he ignores has helped endlessly with his turn and stop, he hunts better than ever thanks to your advice, UNLESS he’s flushed live game nothing works.

Shane trains to open qualifying level and trials at open level too. I do not know what facilities he has access to.
A dog such as yours is a liability for a shoot, and as said not fit in my view to be of benefit on a commercial enterprise.
Join some fb groups such as the training days page and gundogs and ask for pens that way near you. I like to see people succeed with tgeor dogs and by no means hope i haven't offended you. You are welcome to use my pen in sussex if that helps

[ips]

Bit harsh mate

[Rough_mut]

Bit harsh mate

I don't think he meant it in a harsh way.....

In all fairness my dog is not fit for a commercial shoot. Picking up and sweeping he's ok, but in a beating line near a flushing point..... not a chance!

I'm sure I could control him but I normally don't realise I've forgot my whistle until the end of the day

RM

[munstyman]

Ouch! and I thought I was harsh Springcopse
I would not go as far as to say this little dog is a liability, I've seen far worse than this little episode and some dogs have even gone on to make decent dogs for the field. I said before Aimeetess, I think your trying to run before you can walk and you seem a little too self conscious to do the right thing when it comes to training the dog in hot situations.
Commercial picking up is not the place to train a picking up dog, proof that training by all means, but you must have the experienced dog to cover where and when you need to cosset your in training one
It is clear that the `chase' is what is stimulating the dog and not the game itself, and dare I say it I don't think you and the dog are on the same page when it comes to the stop, you simply have not trained it enough, or at least to the standard I would except before taking my dog into wild game. The more the dog chases and succeeds in getting away from you the more reinforced the behaviour will become. Correcting the dog after the fact will serve little purpose for the learning not to chase, you have to have the dog stop before you need to correct it and that includes the use of the long line or ec. I do not go along with the jerk when the dog reaches the end of the line to teach the dog not to chase or obey the stop, it is merely a way to stop the dog succeeding in a chase. A perfect stop is taught between the command and the end of the line
At the risk of repeating myself, the lead is your friend and pick your moments when to work the little fella. This dog needs you to step back and put his training before work this season, then you may get the dog you want in subsequent seasons....if you keep pushing you may get the dog you deserve

[ips]

Rough mut
Maybe not but imo saying the dog is a liability is unfair and does not encourage Aimee who has openly and candidly stated that she has had a bad day, a comment by a gun which also may not have been meant harshly drove her to tears. Aimee has trained this dog on her own and has had good results, yes she has problems to overcome but dont we all. Even Judy a highly experienced handler had a bad day last week does that make her dogs a liability also ?