Positive & Traditional Training Techniques Discussion

[Naj]

never use treats of any kind to train a dog you don't need treats

Hmmm. isn't throwing a ball down simply using it as a 'treat' to reward/encourage its hunting? I find edible rewards very potent under the right circumstances.

And welcome, Pete.

Naj

[Polmaise]

Spookily enough! talking with a guy that has been to 'many a championships' with spaniels.
Quartering''?..quote " I usually just chuck a few tit bits in front of me like sewing seeds in a field"

[Naj]

Derry Argue advocates throwing pups food across a field to get them hunting.

[drumkeen gundogs]

So when we go out shooting we need to take a pocket full of dog biscuits with us incase the dog forgets what its all about " sorry dont mean to sound smart " but treats dont work and you will end up doing two lots of training can I give you an example its like baby talk teaching your child words like say tushy peg instead of saying teeth, if the dog is from good breeding the natural instinct to hunt is there and you have to let it flourish and become strong, in Ireland at present the English Springer Spaniel population is Knackered apart from a few breeders including myself very similar to the likes of Glynn Burrows in Derbyshire (Newflame Gundogs ) , the reason being is the interbreeding of Field trial dogs and poor breeding ethics look up Hattonswood Brock an International FTCH fabulous little dog BUT is has been bred with nearly every bitch in Ireland wether they are worthy or not, 3 years ago I bought a pup off hattonswood brock the tail had been docked at 7/8ths ( the new look ) it learnt real quick to retrieve / sit /stay / heel etc but would not hunt on its own it would pup hunt with the other dogs but once they were put away it only wanted to wander about and trot along beside you, It took me 2 years to find the 3 dogs I have 2 bitches & 1 dog Jack the stud dog has seven generations of Newflame in him and the bitches have very little or no fieldtrial apart from wayback of warlord , they rip through cover like its not there they never stop hunting when cast off and they hunt for scent , and when they were pups I didn't have to encourage them to hunt or quarter they did it naturally and all the pups from Jack Kes & Fizz have turned out to be unbelievable fabulous working springers, I feel incredibly lucky as I know I have hit the Jackpot with these 3 dogs and I know I have rambled and digressed but I feel so strongly that the English Springer Spaniel has been lost to a 30 minute run around the bushes and a few small clumps of briars show the spaniels I admire so much and own hunt at what we call full tilt ( a Yorkshire saying ) for 3 to 4 hours through boggy tall rushed fields thick briars Gorse bushes dyke bottoms etc hunting men in Ireland call them Woodcock Dogs they mean a proper IKC working springer spaniel, but anyway back to quartering when you train your dogs left and right retrieves with hand signals incorporating the turn whistle you can direct your dogs from one side to the other controlled quartering if they are left to hunt naturally for scent it it doesn't look as pretty but the dog using its very efficient sense of smell and instinct wont cover ground using precious energy for nothing just to look good.

[Naj]

So when out shooting we need to take a pocket full of balls/dummies with us in case the dog forgets what it's all about ... ?

I agree with much of what you say regarding the requirements of a working spaniel, Pete, although I'm not familiar with the state of the springer in Ireland. As regards the use of edible rewards, they are obviously essential if you choose to train by positive reinforcement methods, and an increasing number of trainers are using these methods to some extent these days. Like the use of dummies to encourage quartering, they are gradually fazed out over time. Incidentally, using balls & dummies to 'encourage' a spaniel to quarter/hunt is a relatively modern procedure. I've trained many spaniels over the years & have never needed to resort to balls, dummies or scattered treats to get them to hunt, I've simply encouraged/relied upon their intrinsic natural ability & desire to cover the ground just for the hell of it.

Best wishes, Naj

[drumkeen gundogs]

Hi Naj I love a good debate thanks, I love gundogs / training / shooting etc and am really passionate about it and I suppose after many years of sticking to what I find works and having clients who have tried training with treats and failed miserably I am quite guilty of being sceptical, I also do general obedience training and have forgotten the amount of times customers have said they used to give their dogs treats which worked for a while but the dog soon wised up and got bored with the treats.
The whole idea is the dog should be trying to locate an object by scent , starting with dummies / balls etc and moving onto live and dead scents when the dog is obedient and controlled and ready to enter the shooting field, the end result of a hunt and find and retrieve for a gundog should not be edible, the positive enforcement thing your talking about should surely be the handlers love and praise, the dog gets fed in the kennel, it works / hunts and retrieves especially in a good spaniel because there is a magic spark that can't be defined or described that tells that dog it was born to do this and the stronger it is sets some dogs apart from others ( top class working dogs / Ftch ,s ) that was my point earlier about bad breeding nowadays and the ruination of the spaniel the fieldtrial stage. How many dogs do you think David Lisset looks at before he chooses what keep and what to sell off to a waiting list full eager customers ready to part with lots of money for a so so dog, I dont expect you would see David with a pocket full of treats and we would all aspire to be where he is, I think sometimes people try and use shortcuts and aids to make up for their lack of skill and natural affinity and connection with animals something some people are born with and others are not , we all cant be Eric Clapton or David Lisset, best wishes Pete

[Naj]

Hi Pete, I'm fully familiar with all the traditional aversive methods, having used them very successfully for the best part of 40 years. I'm now experimenting with positive reinforcement methods because they are an interesting challenge, & I've grown tired of imposing traditional methods on my dogs. I generally shoot on my own & always over my own dogs so am no longer influenced by peer pressure or convention, & so am in a better position than most to grapple with the complex problems that come with training using 'positives'. If you like, It's an acedemic process for me. I've also moved on from the bog standard clicker type training & am now more interested in developing environmental training - where I manipulate behaviours but the dog doesn't realise it is being trained. I no longer do any formal obedience training in the accepted sense. Many people believe that the use of edible rewards is easy, at least in the early stages, but it is fraught with problems for the inexperienced. As you have seen from the number of problem dogs you are asked to sort out. The biggest problem is in distraction proofing the behaviours. A lot of pro trainers in the States do all their puppy training using positives, but then incorporate low level e-collar use to get around the problem of distractions. But you are right, it's not just about edible rewards, but also praise & retrieves & being allowed to hunt on as a reward for doing a behaviour correctly. It's just that edible rewards are often more accessible to the dog than most other things.

I'm also aware of how many pups a pro trainer in this country gets through each year in their selection process. It's interesting you mention David Lisssett. A friend of a friend has just got an 8 month old pup from him, from his own breeding, at a knock down price because he considered it too soft. And he wanted it to go to a pet home, even though it would have made the grade as a shooting dog. There were 2 dogs sold on like this from the same litter. I'll be seeing it later this summer so can't wait to see what its like.

Naj

[looandbea]

Thanks naj and drumkeen gundogs. Quality discussion...

[linney36]

so want to train with naj

[Polmaise]

so want to train with naj

join the queue
He was 'invited' to the Lakeland venue! but from where he is, that was a bit much to ask