Positive & Traditional Training Techniques Discussion

[Allyson]

Then you get out your toolbox and/or think outside of it.

If you control access to all the resources a dog wants, you are then able to reinforce appropriate behaviour by permitting that access so you can train by

providng an opportunity to
sniff
play
pee

the opportunities are endless.

Unless you are faced with a dog which has 4 wheels and a large handle, the dog will always want something you have.

[beth.james]

Thanks for that Wendy, an interesting concept. Yes, perhaps an 'eagerness to please' is the wrong way of putting it - a bit anthropomorphic. More an eagerness to receive a reward (whether it be treat, dummy, fuss etc) which consequently is an action that pleases us...

[Polmaise]

If you control access to all the resources a dog wants, you are then able to reinforce appropriate behaviour by permitting that access so you can train by

Is this aversive training? or positive?.or both?
It would appear to me ,that is what I base all training on.
I was in the military , it worked .

[Judy]

I'm not sure we can preclude dogs from having similar emotions to our own?

[beth.james]

I certainly don't think we can talk of dogs as having the same emotional concepts that humans do. Their world is a lot simpler and I don't think we should endanger ourselves with joining the ranks of the some in the 'pet' world as treating them as such.

Please don't jump to any conclusions that I am hard on my dogs etc etc. More often than not, I'm probably too soft. But a dog is a dog.

[Wendy M]

An interesting discussion. What if you have a dog that is not motivated by food/treats and/or their desire to hunt/work is stronger than their desire to eat. I can see that it would work for labs but there's quite a few fussy cockers and hprs out there that wouldn't give a dot about doing something for a treat.

Then you can either manipulate the opportunity to hunt to your advantage or take the dog away from the hunting environment and use something else to motivate it until the behaviour has been learned.

Although hunting may be the number 1 motivator for a particular dog, it will be motivated by a number of other things, it is the job of the trainer to manipulate these motivators. If it is too difficult to control hunting as a reward for some behaviour you want to work on, take the dog to a different environment, where it cannot hunt, to teach these behaviours and make use of a different motivator (reward). Once learnt and fluent the behaviour can then be placed back into the hunting environment, and the desire to hunt used as a distraction to proof the behaviour you are training.

Many traditional trainers think that a retriever could only possibly be motivated by retrieving, or a spaniel only motivated by hunting, and that by using something else to motivate and reward the dog that this will interfere with their drive to retrieve or hunt etc.. I do not believe this to be true.

Wendy

[Rothievale]

An interesting discussion. What if you have a dog that is not motivated by food/treats and/or their desire to hunt/work is stronger than their desire to eat. I can see that it would work for labs but there's quite a few fussy cockers and hprs out there that wouldn't give a dot about doing something for a treat.

Then you can either manipulate the opportunity to hunt to your advantage or take the dog away from the hunting environment and use something else to motivate it until the behaviour has been learned.

Although hunting may be the number 1 motivator for a particular dog, it will be motivated by a number of other things, it is the job of the trainer to manipulate these motivators. If it is too difficult to control hunting as a reward for some behaviour you want to work on, take the dog to a different environment, where it cannot hunt, to teach these behaviours and make use of a different motivator (reward). Once learnt and fluent the behaviour can then be placed back into the hunting environment, and the desire to hunt used as a distraction to proof the behaviour you are training.

Many traditional trainers think that a retriever could only possibly be motivated by retrieving, or a spaniel only motivated by hunting, and that by using something else to motivate and reward the dog that this will interfere with their drive to retrieve or hunt etc.. I do not believe this to be true.

Wendy

I can understand the theory and I don't believe that using food will interfere with their hunting drive but I also know several dogs that are fussy eaters and not at all interested in food. Tripe/raw meat maybe but I wouldn't fancy putting tripe in my pocket....I recently sold a dog to the prison service and it was really interesting talking to the guys about how they train them, I love watching dogs work, whatever their job, they say it takes just a few months to train them, amazing really.

[drumkeen gundogs]

Having tried to understand these different methods by the descriptions written it has become clear that if its difficult for a fairly educated human being to grasp it must be extremely hard for a dog to work out what is required and expected of them and as other members have pointed out and I must ask the same questions what sort of treats do you use, what if the dog gets bored with them what if the dogs not hungry do you have to keep the dog hungry , I can see it may work if the pup is yours and knows nothing other than this but I can't imagine how many years it would take to train the dog for the shooting field, another point is lets face it when you wean off the treats arn't you back to good old praise and love and as I mentioned earlier it seems like teaching a dog something you have to teach again, wendy and Naj both said that praise and love was a treat but its more and above a treat that only works on the stomach its a bond an understanding a connection of trust and confidence and love between the owner and dog , as mentined earlier humans tend to humanise dogs in my work with general obedience clients the amount of people I see who are the submissive partner of the dog is amazing , I have had people actually get upset during a 1 hour session because the dog bonds with me and ignores the owner simply because the dog sees me as the dominant partner, simply through body language and attitude, we are talking here about gundogs but in general an unruly badly behaved dog is a bloody nightmare and can ruin family life, my final point on this subject is A GUN DOG IS NEVER FULLY TRAINED my dogs are well trained extremely obedient dogs but when shooting season comes around and progresses we all notice an extra yard or two creeping in on the stop whistle the odd run in etc etc straight away I put in a few training sessions even while shooting I correct the behaviour with these other methods of treats if you have weaned off treats what do you do then ?
I will finish my training regime explanation for anyone interested very best wishes Pete ps final conclusion as humans we invent something perfect it then try to think of ways to replace it its all very interesting but usually a waste of time .

[Judy]

I use food but only to shape the basic behaviours like sit, recall and down. Once they've grasped the concept of those three I forget food as a reward and concentrate on the vocal and touch rewards. If the pup is trained constructively then one thing follows on from another and there's no need for stressing a point by food/ toys whatever. I believe a well bred gundog is rewarded by being able to do the thing it was bred for, hunting and retrieving.

By applying scientific reasoning / explanation to training I think we lose sight of the dog itself? As others are fond of saying its not rocket science it's normal mammalian behaviour we are working with whether it be dogs or kids...

[Naj]

Just wanted to say this is a really interesting discussion, long may it continue and for any other experienced guys to join in

I can't quite work out, Naj do you yourself use the positive reinforcement methods of using food treats? One thing that puts me off doing this is I worry about the 'phasing out' stage. At some point you need to stop using the treats, when do you do this? I can't help thinking the dog may then decide that following your commands 'isn't worth it' when he stops getting food, even if phased out slowly. Personally, I'd rather his reward be a fuss and his eagerness to please.

But I'm always interested in hearing other people's methods and how they work with them. Some of us can't afford to be so stuck in our ways, we're still learning

Yes, I do use food as a 'reward' ( not treats. Treats are something given for nothing ). Food is one reward that is readily accepted by all dogs - they all have to eat - & convenient to carry around & use. (And when you get out into the field, many dogs aren't really interested in being fussed.) I don't get too bogged down with when to phase it out. This tends to follow on naturally when a dog knows the response to a particular command, but I still use food rewards with my 2 year old. Just in the same way as you don't stop using your praise & fuss on your dogs when they have done something special. Once a dog knows how to respond to a behaviour on cue & will only present it on cue, then you simply start rewarding the better responses. Some trainers follow set routines where they reduce the rewards by different rates, sometimes randomly, sometimes according to performance - there are several different 'schedules' you can follow on this. I think you can take them off too quickly, before the behaviour is really conditioned into a reflex (classical conditioning - sorry about that ). In any event, if you start phasing out food rewards & the behaviour begins to break down, then the dog hasn't been fully conditioned to it. What happens in practice is that as you get into more practical field training, the food rewards are naturally replaced by the rewards of being allowed to quarter or pick a retrieve. So, you hup the dog, and the reward for hupping is to be cast on again to hunt or to be sent for a retrieve.

I think 'positive' trainers too often fall into the trap of training in the same sequence as traditional trainers, but simply swap aversives for rewards. I think they are missing the main point here, that dogs are capable from learning from their immediate environment & you can manipulate their behaviours by controling their interaction with that environment, so the environment becomes the cue for a behaviour, rather than you. If that makes sense. So I do a lot of training without any commands. It sees me put its food bowl down & that becomes the trigger to step back & wait, then when it looks me in the eye that triggers the cue for it to be released. The door to the kennel opens & triggers the dog to stand on its bench. It looks me in the eye & that is the cue that triggers its release from the kennel. It sees a dummy flying through the air & that becomes the cue for it to sit & wait for the command, rather than me telling it to wait. It sees a dummy thrown & if I walk away that becomes a cue for it to leave & come with me. If I stand there it looks me in the eye & that triggers the cue for the retrieve. Stuff like that.

Naj