Positive & Traditional Training Techniques Discussion

[Allyson]

One of the books I would recommend if people want to explore another avenue is

The Thinking Dog: Crossover to Clicker Training by Gail Tamases Fisher.

She eloquently articulates the hows, whys, wherefores, barriers, etc

I often recommend it

[Wendy M]

Naj, I do believe that you're absolutely right!

I have studied learning theory and have experimented with the clicker to try and put into practice the theory I've studied and also to see if the clicker as a tool has a place within gundog training. At the beginning, when you see the clicker working it is easy to think WOW this is the answer to all my problems, but the more you work with it the more you realise that it has limitations as all "tools" have I guess. Maybe I've been taking the clicker to extreme lengths but maybe I need to to fully understand its capacity, if you see what I mean!

I do also agree that training methods/techniques may need to be altered depending on breed and what you are training for. At the moment I am enjoying watching the learning process, rather than training for a particular reason. I would like to enter tests/trails when we reach that stage, but am not that competitive really, So we'll see....

I think you have a great philosophy when it comes to training Naj.

Wendy

[cornishman]

There are also some that will be stuck in their ways and do not want change, and also want nothing to do with what they perceive to be "new fangled ideas"! but that's not me!

Wendy

Wendy[/quote]Thats the point the ideas aint new just the language they are wrapped in

[Wendy M]

Thats the point the ideas aint new just the language they are wrapped in

The science behind how animals learn and the terms Operant and Classical conditioning have been around since the turn of the century, when dog trainers were still "breaking" dogs, the ideas have slowly filtered through into practical dog training ever since.

So neither ideas nor terms are particularly "new".

Whether you use the scientific names for the process or "layman's" terms shouldn't matter, but how we use the process, makes a difference to the way that our dogs learn the things that we try to teach them.

Wendy

[Polmaise]

never use treats of any kind to train a dog you don't need treats

Hmmm. isn't throwing a ball down simply using it as a 'treat' to reward/encourage its hunting? I find edible rewards very potent under the right circumstances.

And welcome, Pete.

Naj

Well?....You started it
Maybe on reflection it should have been titled 'Positive & Positive Traditional Techniques'

[Wendy M]

Just read a post on the mainly american yahoo group "positive gundogs" about "Traddy" trainers and "pozzie" trainers!! Now there's some new language!!

Wendy

[Naj]

Wendy

Thats the point the ideas aint new just the language they are wrapped in[/quote]

I'd disagree , & say that 20 - 30 years ago we wouldn't be having this discussion, because 'serious' gundog, (& many pet dog trainers, I'm sure) would'nt dream of 'bribing' their dogs with 'treats', because it was generally considered that it didn't work & would ruin the working bond & natural respect between handler & dog.

Naj

[Polmaise]

Naj!
20-30 years ago they were! ..they just didn't admit it!
Early stage training is all done on the 'stimulus' , and there is nothing eager than hunger.
I have Two 6 week old pups at present going through the same routine as them before.
Looks good for the 'unbelievers', they are retrieving game to hand! ..Nah!....one week before that they were retrieving themselves to the dish!...which happened to be 'ME'!

Many years ago ,seeing and listening to a 'then successful' Gun dog trainer with a perfectly trained dog walking to heel with a gait that Mary Ray would be proud of'.
I asked " Do you train with food"?.... ..A look of 'How dare you'! descended apon me!...
Much like clicker,and every other method ...a tool which to use ,if used correctly ....but I dont use a screwdriver to fasten a bolt (Wendy will be frantic working that one out )

Like I say..Dogs don't Lie!

[Wendy M]

Much like clicker,and every other method ...a tool which to use ,if used correctly ....but I dont use a screwdriver to fasten a bolt (Wendy will be frantic working that one out )

Not so cryptic this time pol,

I was actually thinking about using a similar analogy in my earlier post. I was thinking about the clicker as a "tool" and going to say: A hammer is the best tool for driving for in a nail, but not so great for screwing in a screw!! but then I began thinking about a Dremmel Multi and that that is a tool that can be used for a multitude of jobs! Then I started pondering about the clicker again........

Wendy

[Polmaise]

Much like clicker,and every other method ...a tool which to use ,if used correctly ....but I dont use a screwdriver to fasten a bolt (Wendy will be frantic working that one out )

Not so cryptic this time pol,

I was actually thinking about using a similar analogy in my earlier post. I was thinking about the clicker as a "tool" and going to say: A hammer is the best tool for driving for in a nail, but not so great for screwing in a screw!! but then I began thinking about a Dremmel Multi and that that is a tool that can be used for a multitude of jobs! Then I started pondering about the clicker again........

Wendy

Yea!...but the Dremel cant 'Weld'!..
I used to work for Bosch