Positive & Traditional Training Techniques Discussion

[Wendy M]

I would like to see how it tackles a runner amongst all the shot birds around

How would you train for this then?

Wendy

[Naj]

I would be interested if a dog trained through a 'Positive only' regime would react to a 'traditional technique?

Not quite sure what you are saying here, Pol, but I do know, from personal experience, that a pup that has been trained through a purely 'positive only' regime, without even a raised voice or a 'growl' to show when they have gone wrong, look completely askant & confused if traditional aversive techniques are suddenly introduced into their training. The normal behavioural responses that you would expect & look to see when training traditionally, the overt body language associated with 'biddability', 'respect', 'subservience', 'obedience', are all learned behaviours, and this quickly becomes apparent when you train by positives alone.

An older dog that has been trained through traditional methods would quickly catch on to clicker style training, but I think (I've never attempted it) you would then struggle developing that methodology onto game, because, presuming we are talking about a dog that has already been trained on game using traditional methods, the dynamics of the relationship between game, dog & handler will already have worked into strong behaviour patterns that would be difficult to break. Far better to start with a pup, which is a blank piece of paper.

Naj

[Naj]

I would like to see how it tackles a runner amongst all the shot birds around;)

Not quite sure why how a dog would handle 'picking a runner amongst shot birds' would have any bearing on whether it had been trained by traditional or 'positive' means?

Naj

[Polmaise]

Hypothetically ,as it has never been done?..Training one by traditional ,then solely positive.
..not to my knowledge?
Just wondered ?
I suppose it all boils down to whether the perception of 'traditional', is actually 'positive traditional' ,or purely 'positive reward'? or maybe some other kind of 'traditional'?
Edited for clarification

[Naj]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Philipa Williams of Dogs for Life, who does the demo at Crufts. According to her website she has made up 2 FTCh Labradors through 'positive reinforcement' methods (I seem to remember in the clip of her demo that she actually states that the dogs have been trained without traditional aversives), & has competed dogs in 2 seperate Championships in recent years. Presumably her dogs will tackle anything the shooting field throws at them, including runners amongst dead birds. The kennel names she works under are Castlemans & Levenghyl. Or perhaps I am missing something.

Naj

[Irnrck]

Reviving an old thread, but this has been a fantastic read - very informative, and great to see both sides of the story. I suppose I am in the "positive reinforcement" camp in the way I train my Lab bitch but I am not adverse to some of the traditional techniques either; a growl here and a tug on the lead there. Now I am having a few problems here and there (which are being sorted thanks to this forum) but the positive methods I am using really seem to be bearing fruit. I come from a terrier background and never did nay formal training beyond the basics with them, it was more point them in the right direction and watch them work on the rats. Training gundogs is a different thing all together!

My father in-law has the brother of my bitch from the same litter - he is very traditional in his approach and has had a lot of success in the past with previous labs, I have not seen his dog since he really started putting it to the test but I will be seeing him in September so I will report back the differences between my positive and his traditional methods.

[Wendy M]

My father in-law has the brother of my bitch from the same litter - he is very traditional in his approach and has had a lot of success in the past with previous labs, I have not seen his dog since he really started putting it to the test but I will be seeing him in September so I will report back the differences between my positive and his traditional methods.

My Father-in -law has the brother of my bitch from the same litter too!

He has been training labs for a long time and is in the "traditional" training category - not "hard" on his dogs but views ignoring commands (once taught) as "disobedience" that requires chastisement.

Where-as I view ignoring commands as something I have not explained well enough to my dog, or that the dog is not motivated enough to respond, (i.e. the environment is too distracting or that I am not providing adequate motivation)

We had a great chat and wee training session a few days ago - first time we have been out training together! His dog (my bitch's brother) has the same sensitive temperament so it was interesting to see how he trains him.

It is difficult to get a true comparison of techniques as training circumstances can be so different, but the dogs are not a million miles away from each other in terms of training stages.

It'll be interesting to hear your comparisons between your dog and your father-in-laws.

Wendy

[Irnrck]

Wendy I will report back! September seems like a long time away at the moment...

Sounds like oour father-in-law is the same person... this could get wierd!

[Wendy M]

Sounds like oour father-in-law is the same person... this could get wierd!

Maybe there's some family secret I don't know about!!!! or maybe we are both operating in some sort of parallel universe!!!

Wendy

[Wendy M]

In the summer edition of the Shooting Times, in the Gundog section there is a letter from someone asking for help for their "Deaf to the whistle" 16month old springer. Paul Rawlings advice is to go back and train the sit whistle using treats and to increase distance by throwing the food out to the dog.

I also found stuff by Paul Rawlings online regarding training "heel" using treats.

I haven't read his books but am impressed by this couple of bits of "positive" training advice.

Is this a "traditional" professional trainer moving towards "positive" methods?

Wendy