There was some interesting discussion on this subject a little while ago on this forum:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13554&hilit
Wendy
Learned Whine
Re: Learned Whine
I was thinking more in relation to Naj's quote in that thread Wendy.
Often ,they 'apparently' do it 'sub -consciously' ?..or with a cause that we' as yet don't fully understand why ?, as in the case of siblings that don't?Naj wrote:I think it fair to draw a distinction between barking & whining.When talking about noise problems in gundogs we are usually referring to whining (as is the op), or a little 'yap' when releasing a dog to hunt or retrieve, not barking. Barking is fairly easy to remedy by both positive & aversive methods, because it is usually obvious what is triggering the response & the act of barking is a more physical behaviour for the dog & one that is interspersed with breaks so you have a better opportunity of breaking-in to the behaviour chain. Whining, by comparison, is a relatively passive behaviour that can just go on & on without obvious cause.
Naj
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cornishbirdabroad
- Member
- Posts: 195
- Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:54 pm
- Dogs: Herbie
- Location: Somerset
Re: Learned Whine
Hi Lucy
I had a whiner and I used two methods with him, the second one without realising I was actually doing anything.
Firstly, I tried NikkiD's method in the highlighted topic but without the clicker. Herbie would only whine when in the sit position so when he started I asked him to go into the down position, similar to NiikiD's, praising him for going into down. Therefore I didn't acknowledge the noise.
Secondly, our kitchen leads directly into the garage where my game bag is kept. During the summer months I used to keep the internal door open and Herbie would "guard" the bag whilst it was hanging up. He would be out in the garage for hours, resting underneath, I mean hours and do you know what? I never heard a peep out of him the whole time he was out there and I didn't praise him once.
Somehow between the two methods out training there's no noise whatsoever which has surprised our trainer!
Julie
I had a whiner and I used two methods with him, the second one without realising I was actually doing anything.
Firstly, I tried NikkiD's method in the highlighted topic but without the clicker. Herbie would only whine when in the sit position so when he started I asked him to go into the down position, similar to NiikiD's, praising him for going into down. Therefore I didn't acknowledge the noise.
Secondly, our kitchen leads directly into the garage where my game bag is kept. During the summer months I used to keep the internal door open and Herbie would "guard" the bag whilst it was hanging up. He would be out in the garage for hours, resting underneath, I mean hours and do you know what? I never heard a peep out of him the whole time he was out there and I didn't praise him once.
Somehow between the two methods out training there's no noise whatsoever which has surprised our trainer!
Julie
The Squirt
Re: Learned Whine
Julie,
In your individual case.
Out of interest?..
Does he whine when you don't have the Game bag?..or the trainer?
If you leave the bag in the garage, and take him out/away from there, is the dogs behaviour the same ?
Sorry if this is taking away from the original thread! just curious to this possible cure?
In your individual case.
Out of interest?..
Does he whine when you don't have the Game bag?..or the trainer?
If you leave the bag in the garage, and take him out/away from there, is the dogs behaviour the same ?
Sorry if this is taking away from the original thread! just curious to this possible cure?
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cornishbirdabroad
- Member
- Posts: 195
- Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:54 pm
- Dogs: Herbie
- Location: Somerset
Re: Learned Whine
Polmaise
If I don't have the game bag Herbie doesn't whine, nor does he when we're training just by ourselves away from our trainer. When we first started with this trainer she said Herbie would never make it into trials because of the racket he made!! Beside the point he's too old!!
Now he's quiet like a church mouse.
If we haven't trained for a week or so and goes into the garage for look see he will sit patiently beside the bag. No noise.
If he should happen to whine, which really isn't often now I make him do something eg sit, down, give a paw anything but acknowledge the sound!
I should add that I can call him away from his perceived "guard duties" and there's no noise whatsoever!
If I don't have the game bag Herbie doesn't whine, nor does he when we're training just by ourselves away from our trainer. When we first started with this trainer she said Herbie would never make it into trials because of the racket he made!! Beside the point he's too old!!
Now he's quiet like a church mouse.
If we haven't trained for a week or so and goes into the garage for look see he will sit patiently beside the bag. No noise.
If he should happen to whine, which really isn't often now I make him do something eg sit, down, give a paw anything but acknowledge the sound!
I should add that I can call him away from his perceived "guard duties" and there's no noise whatsoever!
The Squirt
Re: Learned Whine
Thanks Julie,
How interesting.
Glad it worked for you. I suppose it would be different for another though?..maybe that 'trigger' of the game bag was right ,in that situation,for that dog?
Amazing,how many of then can often 'learn to un-whine'?..if there is such a thing?..as 'learn to whine'?...without being 'taught'.......sub-consciously of course.
Fascinating thread btw!
It has been a favourite subject of mine for many years!..I used to get many calls to stop a dog barking at a door bell, or a car going past etc, and I could break down the behaviour to either one 'woof' or 'two'! on the same 'trigger' (which was a learned response to the already learned behaviour), but I could never get a 'No whine'
..I could control it!, but never,rely on it without control.
I am more than positive over the years, that many ,actually don't know they do it!...Handlers and dogs.
How interesting.
Glad it worked for you. I suppose it would be different for another though?..maybe that 'trigger' of the game bag was right ,in that situation,for that dog?
Amazing,how many of then can often 'learn to un-whine'?..if there is such a thing?..as 'learn to whine'?...without being 'taught'.......sub-consciously of course.
Fascinating thread btw!
It has been a favourite subject of mine for many years!..I used to get many calls to stop a dog barking at a door bell, or a car going past etc, and I could break down the behaviour to either one 'woof' or 'two'! on the same 'trigger' (which was a learned response to the already learned behaviour), but I could never get a 'No whine'
..I could control it!, but never,rely on it without control.I am more than positive over the years, that many ,actually don't know they do it!...Handlers and dogs.
Re: Learned Whine
Thanks for the link Wendy. I tried the method outlined there a couple of months ago - Murph was introduced to the joys of cheese and poached chicken and I nearly lost a finger! While he most definitely didn't make any noise (other than munching sounds) while I stuffed his gob with constant treats, it had the unfortunate side effect of apparently undoing his marking skills. Now when a mark is thrown out he immediately looks to me for a treat and totally loses focus. Bother! I am considering trying it again in the new year though, he can always learn to mark again...
Lucy
Lucy
Re: Learned Whine
Hi Julie,
Thanks so much for sharing your experience with Herbie, it's always fascinating to hear how other people/dogs have managed to un-learn noise!
I'm curious though (and please forgive me for being a bit thick), how has sitting near the game bag helped to fix his noise problem? I'm trying to figure out how you might replicate this with another dog? Do you think perhaps having the dog 'guard' a dummy or ball while other dogs get a retrieve? I've tried rewarding silence by letting him hold a ball/dummy for a few seconds, but never tried just leaving one next to him...
Lucy
Thanks so much for sharing your experience with Herbie, it's always fascinating to hear how other people/dogs have managed to un-learn noise!
I'm curious though (and please forgive me for being a bit thick), how has sitting near the game bag helped to fix his noise problem? I'm trying to figure out how you might replicate this with another dog? Do you think perhaps having the dog 'guard' a dummy or ball while other dogs get a retrieve? I've tried rewarding silence by letting him hold a ball/dummy for a few seconds, but never tried just leaving one next to him...
Lucy
Re: Learned Whine
Apropos of your last two responses, Lucy, re "guarding" and stuffing his gob and not having marking skills go to pot, you may want to try this: Have the dog continually hold a dummy whilst awaiting his turn. (Also known in anthropomorphic terms as "Putting a cork in it.") The dummy in mouth seems to sate retrieving anxiety and can redirect energy afield. I have seen this as a band-aid for noise in training and occasionally the noise has gone away altogether. But at the very least they don't lose focus on marks or amputate any digits.LucyLab wrote:Murph was introduced to the joys of cheese and poached chicken and I nearly lost a finger! While he most definitely didn't make any noise (other than munching sounds) while I stuffed his gob with constant treats, it had the unfortunate side effect of apparently undoing his marking skills. Now when a mark is thrown out he immediately looks to me for a treat and totally loses focus. Bother! I am considering trying it again in the new year though, he can always learn to mark again...
Robt., in case you missed it on the previous page, I'm still asking about what kind of noise you've seen (heard) over there, and your thoughts on what's behind it?
MG
Re: Learned Whine
I compiled a detailed study over some ten years a long time ago when I was more involved with behaviour which included many dogs of many breeds ,it had a few thesis statements which related to gundog's that whine,either before during or sometimes after any activity. The study is all in handwriting ( I must dig it out of the loft!)..crackerd wrote:
Robt., in case you missed it on the previous page, I'm still asking about what kind of noise you've seen (heard) over there, and your thoughts on what's behind it?
MG
My conclusion if I remember was that ,handler induced,along with environment conditions ,and early learned behaviour prior to weaning were common factors.