Encouraging to hunt hedges?

[whistleshappy]

Hedgerows can be both beneficial & a hinderance IME. Depending on the hedgerow, dog, type of game present, the pup itself, & how well the stop & recall whistle has been ingrained. One thing I would add is, if possible try to work the pup accross in front of you between two hedgerows, rather than letting it run away from & back to you in straight lines. They do pull in hedgerows and are sometimes reluctant to be popped back in to an area already covered back at your feet.To answer your question though, yes it will come with age and confidence.

Edited to add..there is a big difference between hunting hedgerows & hunting for game in hedgerows.

[trekmoor]

It's a pup, at 4 months it should know its name, sit for its dinner and bring back to you anything you throw for it in play. IMO. Stick a 1 in front of the 4 and worry if he's not hunting hedgerows by then.

I agree with WGD.

Wullie

[Naj]

An interesting thread. I've got a young pup and an older pup out with two different experienced people, both aiming for field trials. One is doing the softly, softly approach with the older pup, very much following Joe Irving and the other intentionally chucked the youngster in at the deep end. The younger bitch was in the rabbit pen at 4 months and the older bitch went in at coming up to ten months. Different pups, different personalities so treat them differently, no problem with that. Both of the owners are getting the results they want but the training style/approach is very different. Same sire, different dams and I'll be very interested in how the situations progress.

Not wanting to hijack OP's thread, just to say there are different opinions about the right time to introduce hunting with Springers.

Sgurr

Interesting, and I'd like to hear more. But I would suggest that it is the one with the younger pup who is having to use the softly-softly approach if he is not to squash the pup, and it is the one with the older pup that is effectively 'chucking it in at the deep-end'. Joe Irving used essentially traditional style methods - mainly because he delayed formal training until a dog was at least 6 months old - & wasn't averse (to quote him ) to showing the dog "a glimpse of hell" when he thought it merited it. In my experience, when you are introducing a very young pup to game you have to handle it much more sensitively than when you have waited & are introducing a much older, & mentally tougher, pup to its first game contact. I find starting early with game contact to be a much easier 'transition' for the young pup to cope with & game quickly becomes a bit of background noise that it has grown up with, rather than the major distraction to established training routines that it generally becomes when left until much later.

Naj

[whistleshappy]

An interesting thread. I've got a young pup and an older pup out with two different experienced people, both aiming for field trials. One is doing the softly, softly approach with the older pup, very much following Joe Irving and the other intentionally chucked the youngster in at the deep end. The younger bitch was in the rabbit pen at 4 months and the older bitch went in at coming up to ten months. Different pups, different personalities so treat them differently, no problem with that. Both of the owners are getting the results they want but the training style/approach is very different. Same sire, different dams and I'll be very interested in how the situations progress.

Not wanting to hijack OP's thread, just to say there are different opinions about the right time to introduce hunting with Springers.

Sgurr

Interesting, and I'd like to hear more. But I would suggest that it is the one with the younger pup who is having to use the softly-softly approach if he is not to squash the pup, and it is the one with the older pup that is effectively 'chucking it in at the deep-end'. Joe Irving used essentially traditional style methods - mainly because he delayed formal training until a dog was at least 6 months old - & wasn't averse (to quote him ) to showing the dog "a glimpse of hell" when he thought it merited it. In my experience, when you are introducing a very young pup to game you have to handle it much more sensitively than when you have waited & are introducing a much older, & mentally tougher, pup to its first game contact. I find starting early with game contact to be a much easier 'transition' for the young pup to cope with & game quickly becomes a bit of background noise that it has grown up with, rather than the major distraction to established training routines that it generally becomes when left until much later.

Naj

Very good

He also strongly advised that in no circumstances whatsoever, should a dog ever be chastised in any way shape or form, regarding retrieves. So, talk all you want about softly, softly or traditional methods, in any way you want to but you are well wide of the mark when trying to conjour up an image, as you allways like to do, that someone believed to get the best out of a pup "giving it a glimpse of hell" was neccessary. A dog needs correction at certain times, regarding certain things, you readily admit that, to what degree & to what severity, is entirely open to interperetation in different ways. Especially in words on paper.
Where has there been a mention of softly softly or traditional methods, regarding the retrieving of cold or warm game? There's a difference between softly softly, meaning gently does it, rather than softly softly, as in the treatment of the pup regarding correctional techniques. as usual, you have done your best to give the complete wrong impression to people on here that are impressionable. Well done.

just been reading a post of yours regarding your own dog eating game, your quote above " The transition for the young pup to cope quickly becomes background noise that it has grown up with, rather than a major distraction"

So much background music that your dog swallows the first swallowable piece of game it encounters!!!!

[Judy]

I thought this thread was about hunting not retrieving?

If you chose to introduce a young pup to game / rabbits / whatever then the pup is not mature enough to take chastisement so softly softly is the order of the day, once the dog is mature then chastisement may become a part of the repertoire if necessary but only at a level the dog can take without being upset.

I'm beginning to think allowing youngsters to meet game or game scent regularly is a good idea based not only on other's comments on here but also on my own experience. I walk and train on very rabbity ground (sorry Wullie!) and the pups see and smell them from 13 weeks old, they become part of the boring background whereas game birds (not the Martini variety) wind the girls up a fair bit when they first encounter them.

In answer to the OP's question, a dog will hunt when its ready to hunt.

[chrisjd2]

What an interesting thread! Thanks for your comments and suggestions

I guess that all depends on what you to do with your pup Judy, so if the rabbit smell is then referred to as the norm then ask it to hunt for them may not have the drive there, until it meets it's first chase then I'm sure the "boring background" will now me a lot more interesting and fun.

Back to the original question, this is my first springer so I'm not sure at what times the pup develops if you get me, I've seen spaniels working hedges manicly and just wondered if it needs to be encouraged or it will just come, so thanks for you comments in terms or quartering she's does this on the walk constantly, if we are in and open field I will walk in zigzags l, I actually use the Steve kimberley method where when the pup is hunting away from you (say the left) you walk quickly/jog in the opposite direction using yhe turn whistle at the same time (makes sure the dogs nose is into wind so it runs forward instead of behind).

Chris

[Judy]

Interesting point, Chris, not entirely sure it holds water given the results when I have inadvertently encouraged my dogs into cover thinking they are "on" that pricked bird we were looking for only to find its a small brown furry thing instead... and I think shooting one your dog has flushed might also up the game a tad. Ask Naj whether early exposure to game results in a slower hunter.

At the end of the most dogs seem to turn out OK whatever way we go about training them. Or should I say in spite of the way we train them?

[chrisjd2]

I do believe in that their is several ways to strong a cat with dog training, I don't think there is one set way that will work. All dog training is, is for us to try and understand what they are thinking so we can prempt anything that may hinder us and lead confusion to the dog what we are asking of it. Obviously there are methods that have proven a lot more effective than others over the years. But thankfully we can all share are experiences with each other and can share what works and what doesn't

Thanks guys, interesting post!!

[Naj]

An interesting thread. I've got a young pup and an older pup out with two different experienced people, both aiming for field trials. One is doing the softly, softly approach with the older pup, very much following Joe Irving and the other intentionally chucked the youngster in at the deep end. The younger bitch was in the rabbit pen at 4 months and the older bitch went in at coming up to ten months. Different pups, different personalities so treat them differently, no problem with that. Both of the owners are getting the results they want but the training style/approach is very different. Same sire, different dams and I'll be very interested in how the situations progress.

Not wanting to hijack OP's thread, just to say there are different opinions about the right time to introduce hunting with Springers.

Sgurr

Interesting, and I'd like to hear more. But I would suggest that it is the one with the younger pup who is having to use the softly-softly approach if he is not to squash the pup, and it is the one with the older pup that is effectively 'chucking it in at the deep-end'. Joe Irving used essentially traditional style methods - mainly because he delayed formal training until a dog was at least 6 months old - & wasn't averse (to quote him ) to showing the dog "a glimpse of hell" when he thought it merited it. In my experience, when you are introducing a very young pup to game you have to handle it much more sensitively than when you have waited & are introducing a much older, & mentally tougher, pup to its first game contact. I find starting early with game contact to be a much easier 'transition' for the young pup to cope with & game quickly becomes a bit of background noise that it has grown up with, rather than the major distraction to established training routines that it generally becomes when left until much later.

Naj

Very good

He also strongly advised that in no circumstances whatsoever, should a dog ever be chastised in any way shape or form, regarding retrieves. So, talk all you want about softly, softly or traditional methods, in any way you want to but you are well wide of the mark when trying to conjour up an image, as you allways like to do, that someone believed to get the best out of a pup "giving it a glimpse of hell" was neccessary. A dog needs correction at certain times, regarding certain things, you readily admit that, to what degree & to what severity, is entirely open to interperetation in different ways. Especially in words on paper.
Where has there been a mention of softly softly or traditional methods, regarding the retrieving of cold or warm game? There's a difference between softly softly, meaning gently does it, rather than softly softly, as in the treatment of the pup regarding correctional techniques. as usual, you have done your best to give the complete wrong impression to people on here that are impressionable. Well done.

just been reading a post of yours regarding your own dog eating game, your quote above " The transition for the young pup to cope quickly becomes background noise that it has grown up with, rather than a major distraction"

So much background music that your dog swallows the first swallowable piece of game it encounters!!!!

Can't quite understand how you could interpret what I posted as me stating that you had to be hard on a pup to get the best out of it, quite the contrary. I think that even you would agree that you have to be gentler when dealing with a 4 month old pup than you would with a 10 month old. And in your eagerness to make your 'case' you appear to have mixed up your threads & taken quotes totally out of context. . You did say (on another thread) that you are genuinely interested in hearing how different handlers approached conditioning young pups, so it's a bit mealy mouthed to then attempt to rubbish what they have posted in good faith. I've always been open over my use of traditional and positive based methods, and am always interested in discussing the merits of the different methods - that's surely what a forum is all about - but please don't feel challenged because I may use different methods to what you choose to use. I really don't mind what you do.

Naj

ps. the Cocker that used to enjoy the occasional snipe was trained by more traditional methods & not introduced to game retrieves until much older, other than the 'unscheduled' accident with a wild duckling brood.

[Judy]

Chris. Every dog is different and not every method will work for every trainer never mind the dog. A more experienced person may get away with things a beginner won't simply because they can foresee what the dog is going to do next in a given situation. Being able to discuss methods with others is great, much better than, for example, reading a book and taking it as gospel.

If your pup is quartering nicely now it will be able to cope with hedge hunting later! I took one of my pups to a small walk and stand shoot for the experience, I was asked to hunt up a ditch with a scrappy hedge the far side. Wouldn't have been quite so alarming if the guns hadn't been standing out in the field watching, never mind the fact we had never practised that. Needless to say her instincts were better than mine and she did it remarkably well.