Need help, newcomer with a hard headed springer

[madrags]

Rags was out of a bitch sired by Trevale Roger. His sire was a dog owned by Chris Thurston-Woolnough, called Tulchan Jig of Halaze. That dog's great-grandparents were all FTCHs - Bricksclose Masterpiece, Badgercourt Dusty, Bencloich Jig, and Sal of Stagsden.
Rags was a big, fearless dog who weighed 30kg in his prime. His bogoffs were legendary, as Jelinga will attest. Nothing other than hunting was of any significance in his life, as far as he was concerned.

[Lynn]

using a rabbit skin covered tennis ball in a very boring enclosed area like a hall way might just trigger the retrieving. Keep all his other exercise on a lead and even more boring. He is still a pup - you could still turn him into a retrieverholic

[Stacia]

I can certainly attest that Rags was a 'bog off' merchant in the extreme. There was a large group of us on a Christmas (I think) group dog walk from a gundog club, we were on the hills and I suggested madrags let him off, thinking he would keep with the group, with that he disappeared off into Herefordshire, we were in Worcestershire at the time. He did come back though - eventually.

[Rothievale]

using a rabbit skin covered tennis ball in a very boring enclosed area like a hall way might just trigger the retrieving. Keep all his other exercise on a lead and even more boring. He is still a pup - you could still turn him into a retrieverholic

Been thinking about this dog and trying to work out what makes him tick. If he just wants to run then there's a problem but if he wants to hunt then yes, you could start doing this, a rabbit skin tennis ball, start hiding it, don't throw it out in the open for him, that's too easy and doesn't excite his hunting instinct. Hide it in some difficult places in the garden and then 'help' him try and find it so you work as a team? Just a thought.

[Comet]

Het Bret, Im an American that field trials & seen dogs like this especially Sunrise males & have trained w/Sam's offspring. Males in most cases are harder to train. I have a male dog that's been breaking on the 1st bird @ trials & before that he placed in 4 out 5 trials. But what I will say you must have patience for them to mature. I would say he is a candidate for a ecollar (sorry). The 1st thing I would do is place board training & collar condition him AFTER he learns what "place" means. That should take a weekend @ the most. Then retrieving after that w/the place board but it does sound like he might need to be force fetched. You just will need a lot of patience. There is 3 trainers in your area that could help you or point you to training groups because your going to need help. Ralph Botti, Jeff Brooks & Mike Wallace. Tim Edwards in PA is a amateur w/a ton of knowledge & very helpful. PM me if you want, I'll do whatever I can 2 help u.

[springloaded]

using a rabbit skin covered tennis ball in a very boring enclosed area like a hall way might just trigger the retrieving. Keep all his other exercise on a lead and even more boring. He is still a pup - you could still turn him into a retrieverholic

I dont think I mentioned it in my earlier posts, But whats curious about this dog is that he retrieves just fine in the house. He will bring anything back. But outside, even just in the yard he wants to take it and play with it or just chew on it. many times he want to play "keep away" with the retrieve. This leads me to think he has the retreiving in him, my guess is its some sort of association he has built , either from me or something ive done with retrieving outdoors...cant figure it out

using a rabbit skin covered tennis ball in a very boring enclosed area like a hall way might just trigger the retrieving. Keep all his other exercise on a lead and even more boring. He is still a pup - you could still turn him into a retrieverholic

Been thinking about this dog and trying to work out what makes him tick. If he just wants to run then there's a problem but if he wants to hunt then yes, you could start doing this, a rabbit skin tennis ball, start hiding it, don't throw it out in the open for him, that's too easy and doesn't excite his hunting instinct. Hide it in some difficult places in the garden and then 'help' him try and find it so you work as a team? Just a thought.

Thanks for thinking about him, Helen. I spend alltogether too much time trying to figure out what makes him tick! He definitely is hunting when he buggers off (I gotta get with the regional diction), hes not just running for the sake of it. What Ive done so far is use a dummy with a grouse wing tied to it and basically the same, Id toss it and hide it so he cant hunt it out. The problem is, once he finds it he takes it and wants to play with it and I cant get him to bring it in.

I am going to try to build a bond as strongly as I can and hopefully I can eventually get him to want to work for me

Dogs do what works for them don’t ever kid yourself that they do it for you because they don’t, they do it purely and simply for their own gratification. And they are very quick to work out what works for them, your job is to con him into thinking that by doing it your way is the only way that gets him his reward and by doing it his gets him nothing and he really does need to believe that….He needs to think that all his rewards come to him because you provide them and he needs to see you as a worthy hunting companion.

You’ve been given some good advice in relation to the non ecollar route with eye contact ideas and using his entire food ration as rewards, light line training etc. You may find that he responds better to bird training and in a way you are in a better position to use that as a reward in your country than we are here. But it would need to be a carefully thought out programme of getting him from a - b and you will need the help of a good trainer I think. Sorry you got such a headstrong dog to train as your second gundog and as has been said, you will learn a lot but whether you end that process with any hair left is debateable.

Rascal

Thanks rascal, Ive never thought of it like that before. Birds definitely will work better with this dog. hes generally unconcerned with food or treats if hes out training. I Think I may have connected with just the right trainer, and will be meeting this weekend

[Rascal]

I dont think I mentioned it in my earlier posts, But whats curious about this dog is that he retrieves just fine in the house. He will bring anything back.
I spend alltogether too much time trying to figure out what makes him tick!

Try ignoring the bugger.... Sorry about the regional diction...

If you are getting him to do loads of boring retrieves in the house he'll do it coz it's mildly entertaining for him....But he isn't going to do that when you take him outside coz he's been there done that and clearing off and self hunting is way more fun to him....

I'd kennel him and I'd make him earn my praise, he'd be interested in food rewards if that was the only way he got fed...

Good luck with the trainer I hope he can help you get a handle on him...

Rascal

[Naj]

If he's playing keep-away with the dummies then he's definitely got a 'retrieve' in him, it's simply a training issue. And I've met dogs that 'weren't food motivated' & had them glued to me waiting for the next titbit within a matter of minutes, it's simply a training issue.

Naj

[trekmoor]

If he's playing keep-away with the dummies then he's definitely got a 'retrieve' in him, it's simply a training issue.

Naj

I agree with Naj, if I have a dog that will pick things up then I have a dog that will retrieve .....eventually !

Wullie

[seppi]

What evidence is there to say it's anything other than a training issue?

The only bit of evidence that's being put forward to suggest it isn't a training issue is the bit where a few people have shrugged their shoulders and shook their heads in horror because there's a Flintwood line in the pedigree. Hardly compelling.

This is a novice trainer getting led to believe that the fault lies somewhere other than with him. It doesn't. It is a training issue, and quite clearly the dog has been bored stupid. Why this case should differ from any other with the same issues is a mystery. The Flintwood line/excuse could well have been the thing that has hampered Brad's progress from day one, it has also taken some folks on here's eye off the ball.

How many folk have you heard say their first dog was hard headed? In reality, were they?