confused about vet statement regarding elbows

[harrup]

Hello

I am considering buying a pup from 2 actively working Lab parents. If the following questions sound ignorant I ask for your gentleness because whilst I am not a newbie to dogs I am a total newbie to Labs.

Pups parents consist of hip & elbow scored dam and hip only scored sire. hip scores for both were good. both have a current clear eye certificate. temperament of both is delectable.as far as I know of as yet, no additional tests were done ( e.g CNM, EIC...I am only just getting familiar with all of those)

I was confused that the sire was only hip but not elbow scored. as a seasoned owner of a different ( large) breed, NOT hip AND elbow scoring both parents just isn't done. inquiring about this with the breeder and stud owner, the sire's owner said that the vet didn't feel it necessary since the dog's elbows looked ok when walking.

checked with the vet in question and the statement is true. he did say that. it is a highly experienced vet and there is nothing in it for the vet for dissuading an owner not to score the elbows.plus the vet strongly believes that iffy elbows are due to incorrect nutrition and inappropriate exercise not genes

I am totally bewildered.as little as I know of Labs, I do know that elbow issues aren't uncommon. i've had dogs for long enough to know that bad elbows are FAR more of an issue to address than less than ideal hips.its the first time also that I heard that elbows haven't got a genetic component!

really like dam and sire but Labs aren't all that hard to come by. if you were in my shoes what whould you do? Walk away? Risk it? and aside from the missing elbow scores, are there any other issues that would make you hesitant?

TIA

[Ettinsmoor]

Personally I would want elbows too plus several other dna tests.

If you are really interested in the litter though join the Kennel Clubs MyKc and you will be able to access both sire and dam of the puppies and see if they have produced any bad elbow scores or have any recent history in their pedigree of poor elbow scores. You can also check the EBV of the litter for both hips and elbows. There is so much information out there for you to look at nowadays .

[harrup]

thanks, ettinsmoor. your input is appreciated.

TBH, I honestly dont know what to make of it and am going round in circles about the pup purchase. coming from a very different breed, I wouldn't even remotely consider a puppy from non fully heatlh tested parents UNLESS I knew the parents exceptionally well and there were unusual circumstances for the litter. if nothing else, not testing hips & elbows and other relevant genetic tests denotes lack of diligence in breeding. Back yard breeding, in a nutshell.

But for all I know its a totally different ballgame in working Labs/gundogs? my past breed was so riddled with ortho and other problems that one had to test them to the nines.

[Judy]

If undecided go without, as you say there are plenty of fully health tested Labs around and plenty that aren't of course as you've just found out.
The right pup will turn up, I'm a great believer in going with my instincts with regard to pups, if in doubt, wait.

[Ettinsmoor]

It isn't any different in working labradors to any other breed. You have breeders that test and you have breeders that don't. Its your choice as a buyer which you want to buy from. I test for hips, elbows, BVA eye test, PRA, CNM, EIC, and SD2. Some breeders do more tests some do less.

I will leave the vets statement regarding elbows to Vicky the Vet, but I don't agree with it!

[Tungulria]

If the dog was in for hip scoring x-rays why not xray the elbows at the same time?? Only 1 anaethetic or sedation then required. It's certainly what I and many others no doubt do.
With you having experience of problems in breeds I'd personally draw up a list of your necessary and desirable requirements for any pup you buy. Ie what you must have and what would be nice to have but you'd be willing to consider overlooking if all other boxes were ticked.
Nothing is guaranteed and as Ettinsmoor says the DNA profiling really is more of a concern now as can give you a genuine inisght into what the parents will produce as well as how sound they themselves are. Obviously there is no such DNA test for the hips and elbows and much will be down to chance and nuture.
If the parents have produced toegther or separately before as said the MYKc will tell you if any progeny have been scored and the results and may help to alleviate any concerns but the tests are available and not overly costly so should most certainly be on the list of things to check for by any potential buyer. Good luck in your decision but if it were me I'd be going with my gut on this one.

[Contender]

Well, I've got a super lab dog here that looks absolutely perfect when he walks and runs, even after having worked 90 days out last season BUT he has '2/1' elbows so effectively ED (3 is severe ED) - you just don't know unless they're x-rayed although you can now get an idea looking at the EBV and other related scored dogs on MyKC as you can then see their results and if there might be problems in the line.

If you're not feeling happy about the whole thing then look a bit further and walk away - many very good litters of labs out there so no need to rush..

Natasha

[Bruneval3]

Just my two penneth, sounds to me as though everything other than the elbow issue interests you. JMO and no offence meant to anyone, especially you breeders. Go for it, for me temperament and working ability are the key areas that are ticked. You can spend an age looking at hips/elbows, but that doesn't guarantee your pup the same. I can hear lots shouting and I agree it does cut down the odds of any problems if the parents have good scores. If you were to ask me would I be bothered, my answer - not at all! Good luck whatever way you go.

[Sgurr]

Just a comment re the elbows - what was done may depend on the age of the dog. My ESS stud was born 23/7/2003 and I asked my vet to x-ray for hips and elbows at the same time, mid 2005. At that point it was unusual for an ESS to be hip scored and my vet basically said he did not feel confident about his technique and equipment for the elbows x-rays which were even less done than hips - and he thought it was an unsatisfactory 'test' anyway. I ran with what my vet advised as he had been open with me and as time went on and elbow scoring became more usual, I decided not to subject the dog to another GA just to get an elbow score. When I got his younger half brother, though, I did get hips and elbows together and elbows were 0 (as is another half brother). So depending on the age of the sire, if it is an older dog, elbows may just not have been the usual practice when the hips were done.

[Rothievale]

I was going to say the same as Enid, depends on the age of the dog. Elbow scoring only became 'popular' and indeed even a requirement by the kc under the assured breeders scheme recently so any older stud dogs or brood bitches might not have been done. PM me the name of dam and sire and I'll do a quick analysis on My Kc of elbow risk. As others have said, if you're really pleased with the ability and temperament of the parents then don't discount them. Are you yourself wanting to breed from this pup in the future?