On Edge

[westcountry]

What a smashing pair of looking spaniels.

[ips]

2. Start with a command the dog knows, many use 'here'. In quiet places, use checkcord, walk around and say 'here' and punch the button at the same time ... I am tired typing, vids are better

Not meaning to sound argumentative just trying to understand .

Why would you zap it as you say here without giving the dog chance to comply. Zapping it for not complying I get......but. ??

[Dawnrazor]

2. Start with a command the dog knows, many use 'here'. In quiet places, use checkcord, walk around and say 'here' and punch the button at the same time ... I am tired typing, vids are better

Not meaning to sound argumentative just trying to understand .

Why would you zap it as you say here without giving the dog chance to comply. Zapping it for not complying I get......but. ??

I was thinking that??? Would it not be better to praise the dog for coming to you, natch', and only "zap" the dog as soon as it becomes apparent that it won't come straight away to you then praise it on the return? I see no advantage in "zapping" on its name, maybe I'm missing something.

*edit*

When I said "I maybe missing something", I didn't mean tact, decorum, charm etc!!!!!

[ips]

Glad its not just me...phew.

[Naj]

It's all to do with the wonderful world of direct and indirect pressure dreamt up by the Cousins. MG is the one to elucidate on this subject, or maybe H&T will oblige us.

Naj

[trekmoor]

Since I have no e-collar experience at all apart from using the collar as a very strong and immediate aversive if a dog is a sheep chaser I will have to think about how it can be used to actually "train" a dog .

I have been under the impression that the best way to train with a collar is to have the dog try to beat the "nic" by complying with the command before the nic can be given. I think it would greatly confuse a dog if more than one command was taught at a time so .....unless I am advised otherwise I was thinking of starting with the stop to whistle. My reason for this is that if I can stop a dog it will make it much easier to recall the dog ? I honestly do not know if this is the right way to proceed or not.

I intend to have him wear a dummy collar for a week or two and let him get used to doing right things and wrong things while wearing it in order to make it harder for him to link the collar with the nic when I eventually put the real collar on him. I'd rather a dog thought the nic , somehow, came from me than from the collar because I will always be with him but the collar will not. A collar wise dog could be very difficult to train ........ I think ?

I have read a lot about e-collar usage over the last ten years or so , mainly on American forums. The Americans themselves have some very varying ideas on how it should be used.
One thing is for sure. I have no intention at all of lighting him up or of frying his ass as I have read one or two people describe e-collar training. That sort of thing is reserved for very keen sheep chasers !

My big problem now is that my e-collar is used so seldom that I've forgotten how to charge it up and how to get it on the correct frequency ! I am a total numpty with any thing that is even vaguely techie.
I will also have to find the damn thing ........my wife has been "tidying up" again !

So, if things go to plan my schedule is.....find the collar, charge it up, discover what frequency it wants all over again, then put it away until Edge has become used to wearing the dummy collar.

I bought that collar about 10-12 years ago because I thought I might have to use it on the GSP I had back then but I managed to train him without it. Then I thought it would be needed for my Brittany but I still managed to train her without needing it. Only now has my health deteriorated to the point where I really need an e-collars help and I think it will only be needed in the presence of game. Edge is usually pretty good at stopping, turning, recalling etc. when game is not around.

I will , I think, have to train him and use the nic a few times when no game is present to get him used to obeying without the strong distractions of game before taking him to where he might see rabbits.
Pheasants don't worry me much at the moment. He has flushed them and while he didn't sit or even stop in his tracks he didn't chase them either once they were airborne. I think that would quickly change to chases once he has been picking up a few times unless I take him dogging-in while wearing the collar to back up my stop commands.

In short I think rabbits and hares will be my main problem because I cannot find enough of them, often enough, to fix not chasing in his head.

I got Libby back today and she very quickly stamped her authority back on my spaniels again. She is a tiny terror ! I no longer have the puff or the energy to take her for the length of hunts she wants and my favourite place to hunt her near here has now got a road built right through it and houses and office blocks and factory units being built on it. The "Triangle" is a pale remnant of what it used to be as a hunting ground. Roads and concrete and tarmac now cover where pheasants and snipe used to nest and where rabbits had their burrows. I'm told it is progress but I don't like it !

Wullie

[Naj]

The beauty of the e-collar is that the dog doesn't associate punishment with you. And why would you ever take it off & leave it behind if you're using low level nicks. You don't suddenly leave your aversives behind if you're training with them. The moment you stop putting it on the dog you will need to correct it at some time and you won't have the means so you put it on again and then the dog really will become collar wise. If the dog always wears the collar then it doesn't mean that you have to use, but it's always there if you do. You also need to condition it to the collar in the way described so it learns how to turn off the nicks. Then you can just use it as a reminder or the old 'tap on the shoulder' if the dog fails to respond. If you train the dog properly then there should be no need for high level shocks.

Naj

[trekmoor]

Police forces in Britain used to use e-collars , they possibly still do but keep it very quiet ! I knew a few police dog handlers and used to blether with them about dog work in general.
I was told that the police did what I intended to do with Edge, that is, deliberately let the dog come to think that it's handler had somehow reached out a long arm and corrected it. The police handlers theory was the same as mine. That is, train with the collar but "work" minus the collar because the dog will still think the handler causes the tingle ..... not the collar.

If I can hunt Edge on rabbits just a few times where he gets to see them if not actually flush them , I think I will be able to get the chasing under control. He is not what I would call a "hard" dog so all I have to do is improve his hearing a bit when he sees rabbits !

Wullie

[bird]

I know nothing about e-collars but have a friend who's a retired police dog handler. He talks about the dogs perception of the handlers sphere of influence a lot and how the limit of that sphere causes problems with dogs trained with compulsion. This would tie in with your thoughts about the collar extending that sphere.

[Naj]

Police forces in Britain used to use e-collars , they possibly still do but keep it very quiet ! I knew a few police dog handlers and used to blether with them about dog work in general.
I was told that the police did what I intended to do with Edge, that is, deliberately let the dog come to think that it's handler had somehow reached out a long arm and corrected it. The police handlers theory was the same as mine. That is, train with the collar but "work" minus the collar because the dog will still think the handler causes the tingle ..... not the collar.

If I can hunt Edge on rabbits just a few times where he gets to see them if not actually flush them , I think I will be able to get the chasing under control. He is not what I would call a "hard" dog so all I have to do is improve his hearing a bit when he sees rabbits !

Wullie

Yeah, but policemen have the advantage that they have much longer arms than we do.