E-Touch / E-Collar training

[trekmoor]

Sorry to hear you got that kind of reception Martin. Not all of us feel that way. I still think that education is better than opinionated ignorance.
I try to respect other peoples ways of doing things . I wonder how many of the people who disagreed with you have ever tried using level two on a twelve system transmitter on themselves ? If they did they would find it can hardly be felt. It feels like a flick of a finger on my skin. Mildly unpleasant but certainly not painful.

Wullie

[scotsgent]

Martin Deeley wrote:
I was told that the way I do it uses the collar too much and that all most people want an e-collar for is to stop running off and chasing. So therefore it is used as a last resort. No wonder I have been puzzled by some responses.

I haven't met ANYONE personaly in the UK who has used a collar on a dog for any other reason than as a punisher for chasing sheep or running off (and no doubt at the maximum level the collar is capable of giving!).

I have also never come across an issue whereby folks know so little yet hold such strong anti-views.

I too have experienced using a Sportdog collar on myself (wrist and neck) and as Martin says and Bill confirms, the effect is simply that of a 'tap' at below level 3 (on an 8 level model). At levels 7 and 8 it is unpleasant and akin to a static electricity jolt from a car door, I would have to be desperate to use those levels on my dog!

No one I have met has even considered that at low levels it might be an entirely humane method of training and polishing. Here is the nub of the problem. Maybe a manufacturer should produce a model which only has the lowest levels available just for training? But then first one would have to convince people that it might be a good and humane method.

In fact, for those who feel they lack the self-control to not give their dog a 'punishing' burst now and then, you could easily modify a Sportdog model by placing a blob of epoxy glue on the control wheel in the right place to foul the housing which the wheel runs close to, thus maximising the level at which the collar could be used to that appropriate for training only. You will then have an e-collar which is impossible to cause pain.

Currently its almost impossible to even raise the topic in say a beaters cabin without appearing to be a sadistic 'odd ball' even though 90% of the group will never have experienced an e-collar and those that had will have been quite happy to have used it as a painful punisher only.

Its a very tricky subject and one of the reasons why even here many folks are reluctant to discuss lest you are considered to be an uncaring sadist.

I have little doubt that if there were to be a poll on banning them here in the UK that 90% would be in strong favour of doing so and of course, that would be the 90% who have no knowledge - not unlike the tail-docking issue for working dogs here in Scotland!

Cheers, Terry

[trekmoor]

I have come into contact with a number of men around here who are strongly anti e- collar. What really annoys me is that one of those men in particular I wouldn't allow to be in charge of or to train a scabby sewer rat ! I see the dogs he's trained and they cringe around his feet and they cringe when they return to him. His answer to a misbehaving dog is a wallop with a stick or a couple of punches with his fist. I've spoken to him a couple of times about this and we are now the best of enemies.

He points out - correctly - that my dogs do break sits and wander a bit when at heel. He'd really have something to talk about if I showed him a dog wearing an e- collar yet that dog wouldn't be cringing all over the place. I would not be using an e - collar at sufficient level to cower a dog................ Not unless it was sheep chasing ............ a different matter entirely.

I think I have posted this next part before on this or perhaps on another forum but it is worth repeating. I'm a long way from being up on electrical terms but as I understand it the maximum charge it is possible to send through most e- collars is about 1/10 th of that which runs through an electric fence. If an e- collar is being used at low level - about 3 on the model I have then that is only about 1/40th of the charge running through an e- fence. We all seem to accept that farm animals and wildlife such as badgers, foxes and deer should get that much more powerful shock should they want to move from one area to another.

I think we are being a bit hypocritical in our attitudes. If it is wrong to use an e- collar then why are we burying our heads in the sand about e- fences ? Could it be because they make food cheaper to buy in the supermarkets ?

Wullie

[Lynn]

I would not be using an e - collar at sufficient level to cower a dog................ Not unless it was sheep chasing ............ a different matter entirely
Wullie

In that situation, if your timing was right, the dog would think the sheep had stung him and would attach no blame to the handler or collar.

I use, permanent and temporary electric fencing for my horses -saves on smashed up fences and barbed wire injuries - and if any of the dogs catch the fence it can be weeks before they will go in that field again. These same dogs will happily hunt and retrieve wearing their e collar. Mostly I use them to avoid the "That whistle was meant for another dog not me" syndrome, by using the bleeper. One of them recalls to my digital camera - it makes the same sound as the collar

Lynn

[noviceboy]

so to cut to the chase whats a good book on e collar usage thats systematic and progressive. sorry if its already been noticed but i may have skipped the odd post

[scotsgent]

I'm not sure there is one readily available in the UK. I believe that Tri-tronics do a DVD which is supposed to be good, but you would have to import it from the USA.

Here's an article which explains a process; its not QUITE the same as that proposed by Martin Deeley, though maybe I will leave it to him to comment on the similarities and/or differences to his technique.

http://ponderosakennels.com/e-collar-ob ... ng-started

You will note that in this article, (I think I am right in saying?) that this is a technique for 'teaching' commands/behaviors, whereby Martins method is used for 'polishing' already learned commands taught in the conventional way first? Martins method, I think would be more acceptable here and in any case, is probably the way that most UK folks would want to go? (that's even if they were to consider an e-collar method at all?).

Also, you will find on the same website a free 30 page pdf download manual on e-collar useage and training. Again, I can't speak for its efficacy, but at least its some background reading if you are interested enough.

I have to say, that I am in complete agreement with those folks who say that if you can't train a dog using conventional methods then you should steer clear of an e-collar as the primary teaching tool. Although I have no direct experience of using one, given that it seems to be a powerful method, one can see that if you were without knowledge, you could really 'cock' things up.

But as a 'polisher' to get a bomb-proof recall or stop, etc. it seems to me to have real merit.

Cheers, Terry

[noviceboy]

thanks Terry a very interesting read

just downloaded the free e book that puts more meat on the bones

[trekmoor]

I don't think there is a book on e- collar training in Britain which is one of the reasons why I asked people in N.Zealand , S. Africa and the U.S. about how to go about using one . Once I'd got past the "fry 'em alive" idiots I began talking mainly by P.M. to some very interesting people . I also had to get past the suspiscions of those people that I was an Anti looking for ammunition. A couple of folk in the U.S. were very knowledgeable and very helpful. Their way of doing things was very similar to Martin's - - - That is to use the minimum electrical charge that a particular dog would respond to. One U.S. trainer commented that he has had a collar on a dog and been training it only to find out later that if he'd needed to use it , the collar would not have worked - he'd forgotten to charge the battery ! The dogs he works on become so accustomed to behaving well that a collar is seldom needed. Surely that is the same thing we strive to achieve with any training method ?

I began 40 years ago as an anti - collar person , very strongly so but reason plus greatly improved technology convinced me I was wrong . At present I am still in "sheep chasers aversives mode" but at least I now know how to use another tool in the box - if I need to or want to.

If others dislike and would never use a collar then I respect their views . It's all about having the freedom to choose rather than having someone elses choice rammed down your throat.

Wullie

[Martindeeley]

Pat Nolan of Ponderosa is an excellent trainer. His approach is well structured and contains minimum pressure. I will use similar approaches on occasions depending upon the dog. The aim with any training is to be flexible and find what helps the dog the most.

I do not know of any book. I have a lot of notes but not put them together yet. Maybe I should- where did you find the e--book. It would be be interesting. Ed Frawley??

There has been some interesting research done recently and in one where a Dogtra was used, the stress from using an e-collar was found to be around the same as using a prong collar and less than where a human intervention was applied to give a signal to quit. When dogs relate the pressure to another animal and they do not know how long the pressure will continue they stress more than when a stimulation from an e-collar or self correction by a prong collar is given and they do not relate this to the trainer. Fear of repercussions from another animal, in this case a human, creates more stress than a correction from nowhere related to what the dog is doing. Think about it

Martin (Starting to write the book. GGG

[scotsgent]

Martin,

Go to the Ponderosa kennels link above and you will see the free e-book download. It seems to be produced by Pat Nolan for Dogtra.

Yes, you should produce an e-book! You could sell it on your own website.

Here is one interesting little fact I have discovered: If you browse Ebay UK and you see a quality e-collar for sale such as a Dogtra or Sportdog (no Tri- tronics are available here), you will see a very healthy number of bidders (sometimes up to 20). This tells me that there is an 'underground' of folks here that are interested in their use. Because of the lack of educational info' available here this is somewhat surprising? maybe most want them to cure a chase habit, I don't know.

Maybe you could consider a book or educational notes focused upon the UK gundog owner and recognise the great deal of mis-information that exists here and also the fact that the very nature of physical punishment to a dog is not really 'our way'. I think with your background and experience in the UK and the USA, you are ideally placed.

Maybe an article in 'The shooting times', etc? With the ban in Wales and the fact that DEFRA are looking at them, the timing could not be better!

Cheers, Terry