Stop whistle at a distance.

[ESS]

Hi all thanks for the replies.
Firstly i never explain myself fully as i struggle to explain what i mean.
The dogs stop is amazing like i say at close quarters to me i taught it him when i fed him so like mentioned ive always set him uo so he cant fail. i can be quartering him and will stop on the spot. Hes been in a pheasant pen and stops with them round him.
Ive havnt stopped him at a great distance yet as i havnt been that far in his training and tbh even when free running doesnt go far from me.
Like i say i can throw a marked and he will stop on the whistle but i dont really want train the stop on a maked retreive as my last dog started to cotton on to that so would stop on his own.

Im at a stage where i need to enforce that stop at a distance and other than the two times ive done it thats it.
I really want use just fun based training as hes a real soft natured dog.

[Stacia]

Just extend the distance gradually, metre by metre and always reward for stopping with a thrown retrieve or other.

[Naj]

I’m with Natasha on this. No need to metaphorically pull a dog’s head from it’s shoulders, especially when you’re effectively punishing it for something you’ve already taught it to do. These are essentially simple pattern games and easy to train without harsh measures just, as always, through repetition of the right stuff.

Elaborate on your "you're effectively punishing it for something you've already taught it to do," Naj.

MG

How do you stop a dog on the way out, at full gallop, as it's being "forced" to go and yet you're asking the dog to do something totally diametric to what it's done for a week, i.e., "sit (stop) to the whistle?" A.

You train (force!?) a fast outrun and then change the metrics by chucking a stop in, fully expecting the dog to do what it has previously been trained to do so you can punish it. Sorry, you’re right, ‘effectively’ was superfluous.

[crackerd]

I’m with Natasha on this. No need to metaphorically pull a dog’s head from it’s shoulders, especially when you’re effectively punishing it for something you’ve already taught it to do. These are essentially simple pattern games and easy to train without harsh measures just, as always, through repetition of the right stuff.

Elaborate on your "you're effectively punishing it for something you've already taught it to do," Naj.

MG

How do you stop a dog on the way out, at full gallop, as it's being "forced" to go and yet you're asking the dog to do something totally diametric to what it's done for a week, i.e., "sit (stop) to the whistle?" A.

You train (force!?) a fast outrun and then change the metrics by chucking a stop in, fully expecting the dog to do what it has previously been trained to do so you can punish it. Sorry, you’re right, ‘effectively’ was superfluous.

We (royal we) train the sit first, Naj - so when we "train" the outrun, we are training along the lines of the other two basic commands, Heel and Here. "We" otherwise applied means that the majority - the great majority - can't be bothered to do as Natasha and Nick and munsty (and jelinga) recommend in starting them early and moving them slowly at their own pace of learning, whether by the inch or by the piece of kibble on the sit whistle. Personally, I can get a pup of 8 weeks to stop on a tuppence on the "in-run" if it is conditioned to think I'm picking up its dinner bowl unless it acts accordingly.

But the "force" be with you and maybe someday in a distant galaxy...it can be better articulated to you that "force" ain't what makes that blistering outrun, it's genetics. And if imparted as Natasha suggests, like starting at, oh, 8-10 weeks, with the sit or stop whistle and associated with kibble or a ball thrown their way, piece of cake no punishment n cessary. But I concede that the majority, the great majority, never get off their duffs to even try it because they're either too entranced by a new puppy or can't be bothered by something so ... demanding...time-consuming...bothersome in their greater lives - which is where a soi disant trainer like moi comes into the picture. Shame, really.

MG

[munstyman]

Hi all thanks for the replies.
Firstly i never explain myself fully as i struggle to explain what i mean.
The dogs stop is amazing like i say at close quarters to me i taught it him when i fed him so like mentioned ive always set him uo so he cant fail. i can be quartering him and will stop on the spot. Hes been in a pheasant pen and stops with them round him.
Ive havnt stopped him at a great distance yet as i havnt been that far in his training and tbh even when free running doesnt go far from me.
Like i say i can throw a marked and he will stop on the whistle but i dont really want train the stop on a maked retreive as my last dog started to cotton on to that so would stop on his own.

Im at a stage where i need to enforce that stop at a distance and other than the two times ive done it thats it.
I really want use just fun based training as hes a real soft natured dog.

You've not quite grasped what I'm saying, a good stop at close quarters, hunting is just that, a stop at close quarters hunting, but that does not mean the dog has totally got it that the stop command means stop...what ever its doing. You have to, as others have pointed out train the stop in all the circumstances/distances you can. However as you have also pointed out , ( over ) proofing the stop in some circumstances can do more harm than good so you have to be careful how and where you proof and not repeat those circumstances to often just to prove it still works
You said the dog is retrieve mad and you applied the stop when the dog was in the area of the retrieve, hunting for it, this was `setting the dog up to fail' as the dog was concentrating on ( not failing ) to find that retrieve.
If you want a fail safe stop, the dog has got to want to do it more than anything its confronted with. You can `insist ' that the dog does it by various means, but then you have to be able to enforce it, by various means and hope the dog can make the connection . The moment you can't enforce it, and the dog realises it, you'll may well find that its not so fail safe as you thought
If the dog wants to do it , because it knows a reward is coming or is a rewarding experience, as long as the reward matches or exceeds what ever the dog is doing it will choose to do it. ( the chances are that you reward the stop when hunting by releasing the dog to do more hunting. From the dogs point of view what's not to like ) If you want to use the retrieve as a reward, rather than use a seen as you did with your previous dog and stop the dog on the way out to the retrieve. Throw the retrieve, then hunt the dog away, then apply the stop and if you get a swift arse on floor, praise the dog and send it back for the now memory. ( again don't over do any one exercise )
Repetition, is still key, at varying distances, but do it in free running and direction drills, not in the working environment. If you get it so the arse is moving downward on that whistle, without the dog `thinking' about it, even in the most tempting circumstances, you have more time to react, and remind the dog , even if the arse starts to rise again for the temptation Keep it fun, keep it unpredictable and don't over do the `proofing' at the expense of training, and don't blame the dog when it goes wrong! Remind yourself to do better next time.

[ips]

Some very interesting replies on the subject, so much so that i will read em all again

[Springcopse spaniels]

All sounds terribly confusing

[Nickheref]

Like i say i can throw a marked and he will stop on the whistle but i dont really want train the stop on a maked retreive as my last dog started to cotton on to that so would stop on his own.

I was getting confused too!! So the problem is not the stop but how to make sure it is proofed at distance to a dog who never any distance away from you except when on a retrieve as it never goes far from you otherwise and you don't want it getting sticky?

[Springcopse spaniels]

Like i say i can throw a marked and he will stop on the whistle but i dont really want train the stop on a maked retreive as my last dog started to cotton on to that so would stop on his own.

Like munstyman said, everything needs to be in moderation. It is the perfect and easiest way to proof this, a dog getting sticky is due to anticipation which clearly shows the dog understands the requirement.
Like most things in life, too much of a good thing can be a negative.
If you have started on a seen retrieve and the dog is bold on going out then do it for blinds instead. If under the starting of the training regime dont let the dog have every retrieve on the stop, go and pick it yourself.

[PRH]

Both my labs stop at distance. I've never tried beyond 150-200 yds because I've never needed to. The younger lab I taught myself by introducing the stop whistle from heel, then coming in towards me and stopping a few yards out, then out in the field (always threw a dummy or ball as a reward for stopping and looking), and then just built up the distance. I may have sepia tinted specs on, but I can't recall any issue with it, albeit did take a while to get the distance built up. I can see that a dog who isn't steady generally would be more difficult to stop at range, but the OP doesn't seem to have that problem. In fact I'd be interested to understand what problem is really...