It's all about the training!

[Kibble]

Thanks Nick
I have re-read this thread again, and I understand the posts better now.
I don't think I could have stopped this dog wanting to hunt, but I don't need to be able to shoot to take her beating. I have a goal.
From Mia's perspective, she wasn't lost in the woods yesterday. She knew exactly where I was and popped back a couple of times, presumably to encourage me to join her? She also caught up with me at the gate.
The pheasants are very vocal just now and I guess that must be the time of year. I sat her on the track this afternoon, watched her listening to the pheasants and acknowledged her turning to me. I think Mia and I are equally good at hearing pheasants call.

[canismajor1]

Just a thought its probably not a good idea to be letting a dog thats not a hundred percent steady, hunt through woodland at this time of year with ground nesting birds around.

[Nickheref]

As it happened I went on the same road last night and at the exact same spot was a fallow deer killed by a car!
Good point about ground nesting birds, I avoid anywhere where I think they are likely to be but we have thousands of acres of conifer plantation that doesn't have much cover underneath near me.

[Kibble]

Ips, I read on the Eze thread that you thought a tether for steadiness/sit training was 'somehow cheating.' I did too, but not anymore. She is going to have to learn!

Canis, just to be clear, the woods I meant are a narrow stretch along a footpath where lots of dogs are walked. I didn't expect to find a duck there and to be honest Mr and Mrs Duck would be well advised to find a better place to be. I take the general point.
I am keeping to places where lots of dogs are walked, and staying off the moors. Fortunately I am winning the' ignore other dogs' battle so the beach is an option. I really don't want a lead only dog.

There is a nice stretch of cover crop, by a footpath in the middle of a field quite close to my house. It would be perfect for long memory retrieves and there is a convenient tether post to slot in some steadiness training.

Fortunately I took MM's advice to 'clear the cover first', (close control still means lead on for Mia) even though dogs walk past here all the time. Just as well I did. What I think was a hare popped out and ran right across the field. Mia didn't see it, but she picked up the scent and would certainly have been off after it. She is less bothered about rabbits, so most likely a hare. I guess I haven't quite proofed lead walking either.
I suppose it is all part of the same impulse control thing really. Walk without pulling, sit without moving, hunt without straying, and retrieve only when asked and without deviation.
I walked Mia back and forth across the scented patch, rewarding everytime she glanced at me, and abandoned the memory retrieves.
Hopefully the beaches will be quieter next week.

[ips]

Kibble
I was totally clueless and had / have a habit of thinking / typing aloud i chopped and changed techniques trying this and that for all manner of things and to be honest I can't remember what worked and what didn't half the time i know that I trained most things by rewarding with a ball throw I eventually got a break from flush back to me for a ball thrown the opposite direction but I was lucky to have a lot of pheasant locally with which to train on. For what it's worth if you intend beating on anything bigger than a very small syndicate type shoot then a break from flush rather than a sit to flush may be your best option. This trained behaviour has saved me on many occasions especially early season amongst lots of birds. I can probably find the thread on it given time

[Kibble]

Thanks ips
I guess that finding out what to do in a way that suits you, your situation and your dog is going to be a bit trial and error for a novice.
I feel that I have been gifted a racehorse, when I deserved a stolid pony. However, I can safely say that I have not squashed Mia's desire to hunt, so having a beating goal, which will accommodate this, is a good plan. I just need to step up and get there.

[ips]

Kibble
I have said many times on here that imo following a FT training regime is not necessarily what you want for a beating dog but that is all that seems to be out there, there should imo be a training regime specifically for beating considering that it seems to be that 90% of us only go beating ......I will get my coat

[Kibble]

In theory, I think the band of cover crop down the middle of the field close by my house, would be a good place to practise quartering with Mia. I need to work out how to do this, without using a longline. At the moment, I think just walk upwind and pretend I am trying to find something. That's what FT quartering looks like on the YouTube .
Unless she picks up a fresh scent trail, the short field grass is not as interesting for Mia as the cover crop, so I expect she will want to sniff in the cover and by default she will be close to me.

Tried this strategy this morning and so far so good. I even got a couple of stops to whistle.
I gave her a long memory retrieve, using a lead to walk her back, as a reward. One benefit of beating as a goal is that I don't need to stress over a nice return to hand. The little knows how to deliver to hand she just adds variety.

[munstyman]

Kibble
I have said many times on here that imo following a FT training regime is not necessarily what you want for a beating dog but that is all that seems to be out there, there should imo be a training regime specifically for beating considering that it seems to be that 90% of us only go beating ......I will get my coat

Aww, and he was doing so well

I would agree that your standard handler is just not capable of getting their dog to Field trial standard and why would you go to that length with no intention of ever Field Trialing the dog. However, training the dog, and especially the basics of control in the field where game is going to be encountered is very much the same whether you intend to Trial, beat or just walk in the countryside with your dog off lead.
The `discipline' and reliability of what is trained for in FT dogs is because small errors or deviations are going to be punished in a Trial and you will indeed be sent off to `get your coat' if you have not trained and got the dog to that level of consistent and competitive standard.
As is often demonstrated, the `pro's ' which let dogs go because for some small reason they are not showing that reliability or quality expected for a Trial. Go onto be extremely good working dogs, because of their `basic' training by the pro. The `basics' are, or should be the same with what ever you want to do with the dog, the problem is many do not want to put in that level of training at the beginning and use the excuse of "well I don't need a FT standard dog" to justify it. Then when things go pear shaped, they settle for a sub standard or out of control dog and expect others to accept that standard with a whole range of excuses as to the dogs `lack' of advanced training. ( You can not build reliable advanced training on the poor foundation of the basics. )
I would simply ask you ips, if all the dogs in the beating line were all trained to FT standard, would the beating line perform better or worse? Is it the dog trained on the stop that runs in and flushes bird at the wrong time or in the wrong direction? Is it the dog trained on the stop that runs out of cover to the gun line to pick a bird that it see's drop? We all know the answer, but we don't often like it because we know that the blame is firmly on us, and what training/proofing we did not do when we should of.
The time and effort you put into a young dog, which may seem over the top at the time, will pay dividend over the long life of your dog. The later you leave it the harder it will be, and the less enjoyable it will be, for both you and the dog.
If you set your sights low, when you fall short your going to have a very poor dog. If you set your sights high and fall short your still going to have a good dog compared to those that set their sights low.
N.B If you want a specific training regime designed for `beating' , create a competition much like some scurries and working tests. These create rules and set standards and thus set your training goals and join the competitive element

In theory, I think the band of cover crop down the middle of the field close by my house, would be a good place to practise quartering with Mia. I need to work out how to do this, without using a longline.* At the moment, I think just walk upwind and pretend I am trying to find something. That's what FT quartering looks like on the YouTube .
Unless she picks up a fresh scent trail, the short field grass is not as interesting for Mia as the cover crop, so I expect she will want to sniff in the cover and by default she will be close to me.

Tried this strategy this morning and so far so good. I even got a couple of stops to whistle.
I gave her a long memory retrieve, using a lead to walk her back, as a reward. ** One benefit of beating as a goal is that I don't need to stress over a nice return to hand. The little knows how to deliver to hand she just adds variety.

*This puts you on the same page as the dog See I told you you know more than you think
** If you find yourself `stessing over it' your transmitting that to your dog, and some will use it against you or at best misinterpret it and not understand what you want, adding confusion into the equation. If the dog is trying to move the goal posts your not making the reward for the function timely or satisfactory. This is difficult to sometimes get right, as sometimes physical rewards are not what is best for the dog, and you have to give the dog more a sense of `self' achievement. Delivery is a whole other topic, with numerous ways of achieving the same outcome, from making the retrieves more difficult to begin with. To moving the function and reward beyond the actual delivery to hand. If you find yourself getting tense over anything training related, first step is stop trying it for a while

[ips]

Good evening Mr MM I trust you are well ?
You raise some valid points I cannot deny it. My point is one that I have made numerous times over the years it is not to train to a lower standard than ft regime but to a different standard (with the caveat that I don't fully appreciate what ft standard is ) for instance I have often wondered if training the retrieve is in reality detrimental to a beating dog given that apart from sweeping up after the odd drive it is not required if you only intend to go beating