Another question on blinds

[David089]

Hi all, back again!

Progress going pretty well on a whole.

Got a specific question about blinds/confidence.

I though she (2 year lab bitch), was running blinds quite nicely. But going to a new bit of ground, it seems like she's just memorised so many locations at the other ground. So when I thought she was running blinds, she's basically going to a permanent blind/known location.

I've been really working on setup and lining - stopping her immediately if she deviates from the line I sent her on.

So on the new ground, she kept stopping on the outrun and looking back for guidance. I had to handle quite a lot onto a fairly simple blind. Pushing back 2/3 times, bit of left and right etc. At the end of the session, I setup what I thought was a super simple memory to build confidence, she stopped after about 20 yards to my surprise, I gave her a stern NO, called her in and sent her again, had to give a 'back' about 80 yards out as she stopped again!

The ground is fairly advanced, steep banks, cover she can't see over etc. I'm limited in access to good ground.

She'll get to know this new ground and I'm sure start running with confidence eventually BUT onto the question! What is the progression that things become so generalised, that she'll run a blind with confidence no matter the location?

She'll run a blind on faint tracks anywhere, but it's where there is no clear path. During the setup, she's looking around a bit trying to see something rather than purely going from trust in my direction.

Final point, she often gets pulled onto tracks rather than running over them and continuing on the line I sent her on. If she does, I will stop, move forward and resend until she doesn't take the track.

Sorry for the long message! Any guidance appreciated.

[newf]

Hi!

Moving too fast in training and as a result too many variables being thrust upon pup. Begin by laying out staggered dummies in line along common routes in the different tracks of the permanent blinds. Then in the same area, lay the ‘ladder’ of dummies across terrain and paths.

When all is going well, where pup is accustomed to running out and can meet a dummy at any distance, near or far, begin true blinds at ten yards. Move about, down paths across paths and ditches, up hill, down hill and over small obstacles. Only begin to stretch out when near perfect.

New ground, begin small again.

[Judy]

Hi!

Moving too fast in training and as a result too many variables being thrust upon pup. Begin by laying out staggered dummies in line along common routes in the different tracks of the permanent blinds. Then in the same area, lay the ‘ladder’ of dummies across terrain and paths.

When all is going well, where pup is accustomed to running out and can meet a dummy at any distance, near or far, begin true blinds at ten yards. Move about, down paths across paths and ditches, up hill, down hill and over small obstacles. Only begin to stretch out when near perfect.

New ground, begin small again.

Yes, the last sentence is the key - don't expect the dog to perform the same in a new environment, make everything easier again when somewhere different. Once the pup has more experience it will begin to understand that the same rules apply everywhere.

[Tennyson.Horler]

To build her confidence you could always create a blind ladder (as newf said) in your new training ground. Put a dummy down every say 15/20 yards to so (can tailor distances between dummies to suit) as blinds. you want the dummies right at the edge of her confidence. Then send her and let her come onto the dummies, try to handle as little as possible. What should it start teaching, regarding of the bunker (bank, cover etc) or a new training ground if she keeps running the way you point she will find.

[David089]

Thanks everyone! Sorry for the delayed reply, I didn't get notified there was replies!

Yeah that all makes a lot of sense. Will go back a step. And I will definitely introduce ladders.

On a whole she is a higher drive dog (I can only compare to others at group training sessions), but I still notice a lack of enthusiasm if things are too easy or I give too many retrieves. Being totally honest I probably give too many, min 10 every day.

I am very much a novice, but it seems she needs to be pushed or gets bored, and I don't quite know where the line is between pushing to progress/not get bored, but not making it too hard she fails or gets confused. My goal is to keep momentum up and build her confidence but regularly fail there!

I decided to take some cold game out today (she's retrieved less than 10 birds, just wanted to make sure she picked game about 6 months ago then left it). Boy did that make a difference. She acted more like she does in a group scenario, out with much more speed and drive. Gave some 100 yard blinds which she aced (they are becoming semi known locations now). I did that before reading the replies here!

It's made me wonder if she's just getting a bit bored with so many dummies. I 'worry' if I don't keep up the volume she'll go self employed.

I couldn't get her off my heel today with game on me, no interest in free running!!

Anyway, bit of a ramble there, back to dummies tomorrow, starting with ladders.

Safe to say I've got the gundog bug, (probably naive as I'm only a year into training my first dog) but my goal is to trial her, or at least tests. I shoot a little but MUCH prefer dog work

[Kevburt]

I was showto do 1 memory and blinds at same area.
Then another ar a diffrent angle. Then again at a diffrent area. Sometimes we would put a blind with a memory. Go n do some quatering then return and send the dog for the blind you left. Still a memory to the dog but it doesnt know the blinds there.

[David089]

Boy is this dog training tough! Almost a year after my first message on this thread and i feel we're back to the same issue!

Went through a period where she was running blinds really well - I let other things slip as was enjoying watching the outrun and wasn't being overly strict if she deviated a bit - I'd then just handle. Anyway, she started to ignore whistle, and decide where she wanted to go. Went back to basics, refining heel work and setup, getting out to her every time she failed to stop, stopping on outrun with a 'NO' when she'd deviate from the line.

I've also stopped all 'walks', she's either training or sleeping. A few people have said she's taking the piss and deciding how she wants to retrieve. I will go back to giving her some free time soon, as i enjoy it too!

She will still run a blind with confidence where she can see a 'potential' end destination, but in thicker cover, she just doesn't drive through, and gets easily stuck by a patch of low cover, or a track. She'll stop in a patch of lower cover and hunt or look back at me, rather than driving through into the next. I always get there, but often I'll move slightly closer, I'll send her, then suddenly it will 'click' and i can see her body language change mid runout and suddenly drive out with confidence. Almost like 'oh yes, this is what i do'.

People have a also said she look like a dog that has had too many memories early in training, not enough blinds with steady progression.

In the past, I've always like to see her happy when retrieving, but again, a few people have said, she doesn't always need to be happy, she needs to do what you ask, push through this tougher period and come out the other side.

Has anyone run into similar tricky patches? Do you push through it, or do i go back to running tracks/less cover? Shorter distances again and build up? She's coming up to 3. Not sure about marker poles again, as it took a while to get off them (looking for the pole rather than taking my direction).

Sorry for the long post again! Any advice very welcomed.

[Naj]

Hi, trying to make her miserable just because you are miserable over your glitch in progress isn’t going to make up for shortcomings in training, which are under your control, not the dog’s. And as for a dog taking the piss, that’s just another excuse for shoving the blame on the dog. I’m sure others will offer more detail on handling on blinds but when things start going askew, which they inevitably will, it’s always a good idea to look at why the dog is struggling. Have you done preliminary work on pushing her through cover, increasing densities and distances gradually, getting her to push through cover and into the open on the other side so she continues her line - dogs often stop at the edge of cover, and also can lose their bearing when crossing cover and obstacles. Have you gradually introduced complexity rather than lumping it all together. Have you practiced in different areas to generalise things. Are you doing too much of one thing or are your corrections leading her to loose confidence. Sometimes when things go wrong it’s a good idea to have a break and do some easier, fun stuff to bring back confidence. As for training in general, I think it should be a fun thing for both you and the dog.

[David089]

Hi Naj, thanks for the reply, I might have given slightly the wrong impression. I don't think (and hope) she's not miserable. When I say she's sleeping if not training, that's just on a big sofa in my office (work from home). She still goes out and has a run around our small meadow, I just don't walk her at the moment, my thinking there is when we're out we're training, when she's at home, that's free time. Miserable is probs the wrong word for me, frustrated yes, still enjoy it though, look forward to training every day!

Yep, so much build up work in different locations, different cover, distances, ladders, marker poles, memories, permanent blinds (obvs not all correctly as this wouldn't be happening, this is my first dog). Just can't seem to get this stage right - which I'd categorise as true blinds through mixed cover. I have felt similarly frustrated at various stages of training. I remember she would drop the retrieve at my feet, couldn't sort it for months, wouldn't even cross my mind anymore.

I feel being more strict is working currently, whistle coming back etc. Is it not 'taking the piss' (an onlookers phrase not mine!) ignoring the whistle and hunting on? (No consequenses for ignoring me) or in your opinion would that ignoring be due to too many variables for where the dog is at? I'm not harsh in any way, if she doesn't stop I just walk out and walk her back to where she failed to stop, walk back to my start point and continue. I'm just making training much more black and white - it's either correct or not. Same with heel work, I slight kidded myself it was good enough as I'd unconsciously follow her vs not need to look at her and she'd be in place - this is improving drastically.

I'm clearly a complete novice, but again my thinking is she's mature enough to take the pressure, and if not needs to be able to handle the pressure, learn it's okay and come out the other side more confident.

With straight lines, surely it's right to stop her with a NO if she doesn't take the right line? And reset/simplify - or have I got that wrong? I know the goal is for it to be just easy enough not to need to correct, but as a novice it's hard to always know where that line is.

I'm really trying to teach not test and correct, but with lines, if I allow her to pick her own line and rely on being handled, feels like ignoring the problem? It's like she's going to where she think it might be. For example, permanent blinds used to be at the base of hedges or a patch of cover, a prominent tree, a track, so she now gets stuck in those types of locations rather than just listening to where she's being sent and pushing through.

I do agree my corrections are causing her to lose confidence. I just want to reiterate, my corrections are just a NO or a walk back to location and an occasional pop of the lead, I'm far from heavy handed. But I do understand repeated NOs on an outrun could easily cause a lack of confidence.

Maybe I'm just overthinking it all and need to push on and keep training just like every other stage!

[Naj]

Hi David, and sorry if I got the wrong end of the stick, I was worried you were going down the road of shoving your dog into a ‚monastic lifestyle’ of either training or stuck in a kennel all day. Glad to hear that she’s still getting a bit of free time and exercise. Individual dogs respond differently to even light pressure depending on their temperament. My current dog is extremely soft natured and will exhibit displacement behaviours even if I just go out to gently stop her from doing something I don’t want, and she never gets physical corrections. But even a more robust dog may get confused through frequent NOs.

There’s nothing wrong with making training black and white, providing that it adds clarity rather than confusion. Yes, your dog should stop on command. But the fact that she might not on occasion is not unusual, can be down to several factors and is all part of the training process. As your dog becomes more experienced and confident in her nose you are going to get occasions where she takes the initiative (it’s often called exploratory learning), and more often than not in a shooting situation she will be correct, which doesn’t help your stop whistle in that particular context but is all part of the development of your particular partnership, or how much initiative you are going to allow her to take. The old adage that it’s the dog that has got the nose springs to mind! All my handling training has been geared up to shooting over my dogs, which means getting them into the fall area and then leaving it up to them and their initiative. So if you’re looking to be able to handle your dog on a sixpence, effectively finding the bird for it, then I’ll leave it up to others to advise.

You mention that she heads off on the wrong line sometimes. Are you expecting a geometrically straight line from you to the retrieve? I’d suggest that this is unrealistic and often counter productive. Granted, she should head off roughly on the line you sent her but wind direction can complicate matters. A side wind will push her slightly downwind, which is no bad thing because it will drop her just downwind of the fall. And a headwind will tend to make her want to pull off short and quarter. As for cover, it needs to be light and the retrieves only slowly increased in length. If she tends to look for similar set-ups as she is used to then look for new set ups that are completely different. And don’t go for extreme length until you’ve mastered shorter blinds. And if you ever watch some of the amazing retrieves you see on u tube that are held on the training grounds of various trainers, just remember that their dogs have run these grounds a zillion times before, and they never show the failures!