Need help with 9 month Lab no retrieve drive outside.

[Lola Brewer]

PLZ I NEED UR HELP X
Long time lurker, first time poster, first time dog training.

I've read such books as professional gundog training joe irving, and Gundogs: Training and Field Trials by P.R.A. Moxon, and read lots of tips on here. But I cant seem to move forwards on this and don't want to cause any undoing to the work which I have done.

Context: When out in the field (with no other gods or distractions) she mostly has her nose down. Her main motivation seems to be sniffing. She will sit to a whistle, be steady, and then if I throw a dried liver out she will sit steady until I send her out to hunt for it, get it, then come back. But she has 0 motivation for balls/dummies/ropes/socks/plastic bottles outside.

at about 5 months she would run out for a rope and retrieve it with lots of energy and then run back in every time, and she'd recall very easily for the rope. Now she has near no motivation for it. (maybe this is just adolescence, but it has been a long enough time of her motivation not coming back that I am writing here)

Indoors she will do retrieves with all those items. As soon as I move it into the garden she just wants to have her nose down and finds more interesting things to do.

What I've tried: A week off of any retrieving. Only bring out dummies/retrieving items every other day for three or four retrieves (always stopping when she wants more). Throwing it from kitchen door to outside (this is where she just gives up).

I guess I just want to find a way to add another tool to my training kit. As right now, in the field if her nose is down, it is pretty hard to get her attention and therefor hard to have more developed training sessions. I feel if there was a game she'd want to play she'd check in more.

Any guidance and tips on how to build retrieve drive and a dog with more focus on me whiles training instead of sniffing the ground would be highly appreciated. (I am a novice so I apologies if I used any wrong terms)

Thanks!

[newf]

Hi and welcome! How old is the dog presently? And why have you been throwing liver treats for the dog to hunt? A hunter only requires the chance to hunt to reinforce or bring out what is already instinctive. Usually our problem is getting the dog to run straight for a retrieve and back.

[Lola Brewer]

Hi and welcome! How old is the dog presently? And why have you been throwing liver treats for the dog to hunt? A hunter only requires the chance to hunt to reinforce or bring out what is already instinctive. Usually our problem is getting the dog to run straight for a retrieve and back.

Hey! thanks for your welcome. She is just a few weeks shy of 10 months. I have been throwing them out as she does not seem motivated for anything else. I know her mother had a very keen nose. But as she wouldnt have the motivation to go out and get a retrieve I just leant into her hunting. Would you have any advice?

Thanks for your reply!

[munstyman]

Welcome to the board Lola.
If I'm understanding it right ( feel free to correct me ) Your throwing seen retrieves and the dog has lost interest, but the dog is showing you it wants to use its nose?
Two things here, What's in it for the dog? The seen retrieves that is. It has done it, several times and it is just getting the same old same old, so of course it is going to ask what's the point. When a dog performs a function/task it first has to be rewarding in itself and or the reward for completing the task has to be worth it to make it want more. And timed so the dog associates it with the completed task, so that it does the whole task to get that reward.
Secondly, the dogs nose is its primary sense, it lives in a scent driven world that it understands. Use it. Rather than throw seen's all the time, mix in some hidden ones ( blinds ) or memories ( seek backs ) so the dog has to use that nose to find the retrieve. Challenge the dog a bit more ( not too much ) but enough to give the dog that "sense of achievement" and reward accordingly for that achievement, again appropriately timed .
Be aware that a dog will attach different values to its retrieve, especially in the early days of training. Some like toys, others balls and others dummies. But the one thing they tend to value most is things that YOU "own/value". The things it sees you with but it rarely gets to hold . I train with dummies so my dogs NEVER get to PLAY with dummies. They see them every day in bags and hanging on hooks. I even have them lying on my desk occasionally and the dog is fixated on them, but they never get them except on the training ground. The only time they are used in the house or garden is when I'm teaching the palm touch or give and take delivery game, and that is a specific dummy, usually a puppy dummy.
I also question alongside newf why you are using treats to "hunt" when it is retrieving. Me thinks you are getting crossed lines with encouraging a non hunting dog to hunt with a retriever not hunting for its retrieve. Now I bow down to your ability if you can get the dog to retrieve the treat to hand before consuming it. I do recall a fun test where the dogs were sent to retrieve a sausage. Mine, to her credit got halfway back before it disappeared I think she was suffering from possessive retrieve syndrome or maybe it had been along time since breakfast

[Lola Brewer]

Welcome to the board Lola.
If I'm understanding it right ( feel free to correct me ) Your throwing seen retrieves and the dog has lost interest, but the dog is showing you it wants to use its nose?
Two things here, What's in it for the dog? The seen retrieves that is. It has done it, several times and it is just getting the same old same old, so of course it is going to ask what's the point. When a dog performs a function/task it first has to be rewarding in itself and or the reward for completing the task has to be worth it to make it want more. And timed so the dog associates it with the completed task, so that it does the whole task to get that reward.
Secondly, the dogs nose is its primary sense, it lives in a scent driven world that it understands. Use it. Rather than throw seen's all the time, mix in some hidden ones ( blinds ) or memories ( seek backs ) so the dog has to use that nose to find the retrieve. Challenge the dog a bit more ( not too much ) but enough to give the dog that "sense of achievement" and reward accordingly for that achievement, again appropriately timed .
Be aware that a dog will attach different values to its retrieve, especially in the early days of training. Some like toys, others balls and others dummies. But the one thing they tend to value most is things that YOU "own/value". The things it sees you with but it rarely gets to hold . I train with dummies so my dogs NEVER get to PLAY with dummies. They see them every day in bags and hanging on hooks. I even have them lying on my desk occasionally and the dog is fixated on them, but they never get them except on the training ground. The only time they are used in the house or garden is when I'm teaching the palm touch or give and take delivery game, and that is a specific dummy, usually a puppy dummy.
I also question alongside newf why you are using treats to "hunt" when it is retrieving. Me thinks you are getting crossed lines with encouraging a non hunting dog to hunt with a retriever not hunting for its retrieve. Now I bow down to your ability if you can get the dog to retrieve the treat to hand before consuming it. I do recall a fun test where the dogs were sent to retrieve a sausage. Mine, to her credit got halfway back before it disappeared I think she was suffering from possessive retrieve syndrome or maybe it had been along time since breakfast

Hey! Thanks so much for this answer! The main thing I've learnt is I've been wasting time doing "Get on". I am embarrassed to say she does not bring it back, she finds the liver, inhales it then I do a recall and the game restarts.

The advice on building drive for it is very handy! I just got a Rabbit fur ball and it arrived last night. I teased her with it and I havnt seen her want something more. I did not let her have it. I plan on doing this for a few days until her drive for it is solid! Then will try do some blinds for her within the house and slowly move them onto the concrete in my garden, then the grass, then field.

I think I was doing the hunting as she was not motivated to do the retrieves, and I didn't want to keep trying in the park as I did not want to keep teaching her she could ignore them. So to keep the sessions exciting I'd hunt her. I just read Allyson's method for teaching retrieves and plan on working on that. My only issues is every time I try teach her hold she ignores me, but this is something I will just try work on.

I think my new field work will be sit/steady, heal work, then do some palm touching. When I bring a ball or toy out tho she just doesnt care for it. So maybe axing the "get ons" and deciding when she can have her nose to the ground, will have her more excited for games with myself.

Thanks for your reply! It has given me a nice amount of insight! Also I admire the fact your dog even got halfway ahaha I don't think I could get halfway with a nice sausage in my mouth.

[Nickheref]

You have sort of beaten me to it, I was going to suggest a rabbit to retrieve as few things get a dog more interested but as Munsty says my dogs love dummies but only get them occasionally and are never allowed to play with them unless it is the give and take game and that is on my terms, the dummies are effectively mine and the dog is lucky to be allowed to retrieve them (I have one bitch who sort of disagrees but still retrieves well and keenly - she thinks they are hers as she has found them but has to hand them over as that is the deal- she is the same with game as well!!). Most people watching wouldn't notice the difference between her delivery and my other dogs behaviour but I do!
I personally think people do far too much retrieving, full disclosure I train spaniels, so not pure retrievers but once I am happy the dog is keen to retrieve and I have a nice delivery, retrieves are cut right back to maybe a couple a week for a youngster unless I am trying to teach something like directional handling but even then there won't be more than 3 or 4 in a session and once I think they have learnt what I want them to know the retrieving it dropped off again and used as a treat.

[Lola Brewer]

You have sort of beaten me to it, I was going to suggest a rabbit to retrieve as few things get a dog more interested but as Munsty says my dogs love dummies but only get them occasionally and are never allowed to play with them unless it is the give and take game and that is on my terms, the dummies are effectively mine and the dog is lucky to be allowed to retrieve them (I have one bitch who sort of disagrees but still retrieves well and keenly - she thinks they are hers as she has found them but has to hand them over as that is the deal- she is the same with game as well!!). Most people watching wouldn't notice the difference between her delivery and my other dogs behaviour but I do!
I personally think people do far too much retrieving, full disclosure I train spaniels, so not pure retrievers but once I am happy the dog is keen to retrieve and I have a nice delivery, retrieves are cut right back to maybe a couple a week for a youngster unless I am trying to teach something like directional handling but even then there won't be more than 3 or 4 in a session and once I think they have learnt what I want them to know the retrieving it dropped off again and used as a treat.

Thanks for the reply Nick! haha your bitch sounds like she has a fun personality. I was holding off getting the rabbit until I tried everything else. But it does seem like the main advice is building drive in the object which is good to know!

I just had my first new training session in the field and it was mainly heal/sit/touch and she was 100% paying more attention to me. I think throw treats down to the floor for her to find was creating a self reward mindset and the floor was rewarding rather than me. I just hope that the months of doing get on's in the park hasn't created any bad habits that are hard to undo, but it doesn't look like it.

She is very keen for a retrieve inside the house. I am only doing it once a day/every other day and doing three on the days I do do it. So her drive seems to be there, but maybe the hunting has more of a reward outside so she decides to ignore the retrieves. Hopefully stopping the hunting will help her.

Thanks again for the reply and help! Any other suggestions are more than welcome!

[Nickheref]

I just had my first new training session in the field and it was mainly heal/sit/touch and she was 100% paying more attention to me. I think throw treats down to the floor for her to find was creating a self reward mindset and the floor was rewarding rather than me. I just hope that the months of doing get on's in the park hasn't created any bad habits that are hard to undo, but it doesn't look like it.

She is very keen for a retrieve inside the house. I am only doing it once a day/every other day and doing three on the days I do do it. So her drive seems to be there, but maybe the hunting has more of a reward outside so she decides to ignore the retrieves. Hopefully stopping the hunting will help her.

Thanks again for the reply and help! Any other suggestions are more than welcome!

I think you have answered your own question! Treat training only works if you reward the behaviour you want! If you get it wrong you are inadvertently asking for something else!

[newf]

Hi! Just a few thoughts: have you tried having her hunt in cover for a dummy or ball in the vicinity of your position? Just a high toss with no arc. Another one - will she play tug with a dummy or ball attached to a small rope? Lastly, when attempting a short retrieve outdoors, do you allow her to run in after a bit of a wind up to get her more keen?

Sometimes it’s good to build a dose of possessiveness in the retrieve and the item. Hunting and finding can help; tug is a competition that gives and takes; and wind up and run in provides desire and a chase, which is deeply instinctual.

[Lola Brewer]

Hi! Just a few thoughts: have you tried having her hunt in cover for a dummy or ball in the vicinity of your position? Just a high toss with no arc. Another one - will she play tug with a dummy or ball attached to a small rope? Lastly, when attempting a short retrieve outdoors, do you allow her to run in after a bit of a wind up to get her more keen?

Sometimes it’s good to build a dose of possessiveness in the retrieve and the item. Hunting and finding can help; tug is a competition that gives and takes; and wind up and run in provides desire and a chase, which is deeply instinctual.

Hey! Thanks for the reply!

I have not tried that yet, she just doesnt seem too bothered about the objects and therefor I just don't try. So maybe I should.
She used to come in and tug with lots of passion, and then at about the 6-7month mark she just didnt care, I think she just found more fun with her nose to the floor.

When inside tho I have been taking away any formalities and just having her have fun. With the fur ball I wind her up a little let her mouth it a tiny bit, then I take it out and throw it and she runs in very quick and comes back.

We went to the field recently and there is a car park vibe part near by. I took a ball with me and tried to tease her on grass and nothing. So went to the concrete and just threw it a few times, first few she didnt care about, but then third one she ran in for it and came bolting back and dropped early but was eager for the next. So that is process!

My thought is that I need to make the retrieve the most fun thing we do, so it is the highest reward. I use dried liver/cheese/chicken/kibble for rewards. But I am starting to think the ball is competing against 1. the grass, and 2. the treats.

My plan now is for my next session, go to the park, go straight to concrete, do some fun retrieves, and then do more formal stuff (sit/steady/recall/heal) on grass.

My goal really is to have it so I can use retrieves as rewards and not food, but that seems a long way off, and as this is my first time training I am going off books and what I can find in forums ahahaha.

Any other advice is appreciated! I will try the ones you have already give tho! Thank you!