allan450 wrote:30 dogs in 3 years is a lot.not saying your a bad trainer but thats serious amount of dogs for rough shooting.im from ireland and i understand where your coming from but if you know the right breeders that are true to producing the best for the breed and not out to make a quick buck.i know a breeder that only breeds the old lines big well marked dogs with little trail breeding if thats what your looking for.im getting one myself in a few weeks.
It's incontrovertible that spaniels have changed over the years - always have & always will. Anyone who has been around cockers for the last 30 - 40 years will have seen a remarkable change in the breed over the last 15 years or so. With springers its been a bit more subtle because back in the 60s & 70s cockers were in deep decline but springers were at the top of their game as hunting dogs. But the standard of handling on retrieves back then was not a patch on what is expected of dog & handler today in competition. It was generally considered that a dog that had the temperament to handle well did so at the expense of its hunting quality. I believe that this has been proven wrong because you can have hard hunting dogs that handle easily, as many of todays dogs do. I have a friend that competed back in the 70s & still does to this day & he is in no doubt that a good 'handling' dog is far more important these days than it was back then, & can often be the deciding factor in winning a trial, and the temperament has changed accordingly. But people also change & so do their requirements. How many these days can go 'proper' roughshooting over their own dogs for a full day on a regular basis, like our Irish friends? How many actually shoot over their own dogs? The majority of spaniel work, I would suggest, revolves around stop/start hunting in short bursts of 20 - 30 minutes, which hasn't the same demands as working non stop for 2 or 3 hours, or a full day. Even the trials boys restrict the dog's running time to maintain pace, & probably because they have a string of dogs queuing up for their turn. By selecting from dogs that show well under this type of training/hunting regime you're bound to be promoting those (desirable?) qualities that match up to that level of required performance. If we had trials where the dogs had to run for half a day then we'd be breeding for different qualities. You get what you breed for.
I will state right at the start of this post that I am not any kind of spaniel expert and know very little about their pedigrees. I have been around for a long time though and I have seen a "change" in springer spaniel type . 40 + years ago work bred springers were larger and were built like tanks. I think it was Colin Willock, a former Shooting Times writer who used a big "old fashioned" springer called "Drake" as a wildfowling dog. I wouldn't like to go real wildfowling (as opposed to shooting ducks around a pond) with most of the trial bred springers I see now. Many modern springers are smaller , maybe faster but also maybe "softer ?"
In the last 4 years or so I have trained just two springers. The springer dog was a large dog and a doddle to train and was an easily trained retriever but he was also soft ..... too soft for my taste as his softness included his attitude to really thick cover. The bitch I trained was a fairly big bitch of Brickclose breeding mainly and she was very soft and easy to train but she was also fast, stylish, very hard hunting in any kind of cover and was a good retriever too. I really liked her and Andy Platt wanted to buy her after judging her in a couple of tests but she wasn't mine's to sell.
I take it from this that where you buy the pup from counts for a great deal ? I like soft dogs that are hard "goers." I think that combination gives the best of both worlds without the necessity for "physical" handling sometimes needed to control the dogs that are "hard" in mind as well as body.
I sometimes wonder if there is a genetic colour link of mainly white coated springers to "softness ?" Many spaniel trailers seem to prefer mainly white coated dogs as they look "flashier." This may be working against them ???
I find this an interesting subject as Labrador retriever trailers have had little luck when competing with chocolate labs. The chocolates seem to lack "go" compared to the blacks and yellows. Colour and temperament do seem to be linked somehow in a dog's genetic coding.
Wullie
If at first you don't succeed .....find out if there is a booby prize !
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Don't do what doesn't work - do what does.
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IF thats the case then why do we keep seeing time after time people looking for a pup for beating or a bit of rough shooting, then all the those that dont know their arse from their elbow pop up and say dont get anything with too much red in the pedigree because they will be to hot or too hard going just get some keeper bred plodder? It happens all the time and over all the years of beating and picking up, ive been told about someones dog and how I should see it as its a proper spaniel blah blah blah and when you do its like watching paint dry. We have heavey brable and bracken around here and not a patch of white grass and rushs so all the dogs in this area have to be able to deal with it all day long, now those same dogs go up north and look a very different animal against the ones that are bred and trained for grasslands and the same goes when they come down this way. Only some of the very best shine in both types, now of course they all get the job done but we arent looking for getting the job done in trials we want something that makes you stand up and watch. A trial is different to a full days work of course it is, but then so its true for every hobby that also has a link to a competative field. Those at the top are far removed from those that go out for a lovely day in the field, but only one can go out and do it at all levels with a few tweeks here and there and thats the top stuff. All the beating dogs know matter how far away at some point have links to trials dogs as people use them to help sell pups as a rule, the big problem here is a clear lack of understanding in what is beeing bred and what is likely to be produced in those litters.
Its all to easy to say the spaniel is to soft or lacks brain because of trialing, but lets be honest here the level of training has increased so much in the spaniels that we see today. Gone are the days where you simply said get out to the dog for a blind retrieve and let the dog simpy run around untill it found the bird, there is a lot more game on the floor at trials now so the dog would simply waist ground and game and likely balls things up and you would be out. Is this a bad thing? no its not because if thats not something you need to train for then you simply dont have to do but its far better to have a dog that can be trained in such a way if needs be surely?
I do find it interesting how this comes up time and time again, and the answer always gets back to saying trialing is to blame where infact 90% of those wanting a good going dog normaly balls it up when they do saying the dogs to hard and untrainable or they simply dont have the understanding of what makes a really good hard going spaniel. You only have to see all the videos people put up on facebook, 99% of those dogs are simply running around in circles all be it fast but its still just running in circles. They arent making good use of the ground and the hunting pattern is very poor, people get speed and drive mixed up all the time and this is why they find it so difficult to do well in trials. Its not rocket science, if you see a dog you like and it looks like the sort of thing you would want go and get one from the breeder or talk to those that own it to help find it. To many now want to click on a page on there laptop and find the pup and all the information on how to train it, people are getting bone idol and wonder why the dogs turn out crap, oh that must be the breeders foult too. Those that get out and do it always have a tidy dog and those that like the idea of it normaly dont.
I agree with James, the folk who put the time in get the nicer dog.... trialers are in a minority of people owning working dogs, I pick up on two shoots and am a member of a syndicate, I'm the only one trialing. Trial people can't breed all the dogs out there....
eastie wrote:I agree with James, the folk who put the time in get the nicer dog.... trialers are in a minority of people owning working dogs, I pick up on two shoots and am a member of a syndicate, I'm the only one trialing. Trial people can't breed all the dogs out there....
Unfortunately trial people are breeding the majority of the dogs here in Ireland,anyone with any old kind of a bitch can avail of the stud services of the latest trial winner or trial champion,its only a matter of paying the required fee,its all about the money and therein lies the kernel of the problem.Theres hardly a pedigree cert in Ireland that doesn't show the same names over and over,with rare exceptions springers are virtually all related.I am trying to develop my own line away from modern trial breeding,not easy to get the right stuff but I'm on the right track and am in touch with people of a like mind.Onwards and upwards.
Was it not always so? The curse (?) of the Popular Sire has been prevalent in working gundogs since the 50s/60s, possibly longer. You used to see adverts boasting Smut-free & Soda-free way back so it's nothing new. I'm always confused by this shooting dog/trials dog argument. When does a pedigree qualify as a trials pedigree or a shooting/working one? Couldn't a dog bred from a 'working pedigree' be capable of winning a trial? 'Working dog pedigrees' always had a high amount of red-ink in them otherwise you wouldn't look at them. Like it or not, trials are a marker of workability of some sorts so without the red ink you're reliant on intimate knowledge of the kennel, which not many may be privy to. It's probably different in Ireland, where I would imagine that certain dogs & lines become renown within the local shooting community & are bred from specifically to supply demand. When breeding is based upon producing trial prospects then there is an awful lot of wastage, which ends up in 'ordinary' working homes, but when you are regularly shooting over dogs you tend to hang on to them & only breed for replacements or local demand, so you could say it was more sustainable. And good luck to those breeding this way in trying to maintain their 'line' according to what they require out of a dog. But no matter what the breeding, James is dead right in that you won't train any dog while sitting at a computer keyboard.
spanielful wrote:The decline in the quality of the ess in Ireland is not very well documented but is very well noted by serious observers of the breed.The overall appearance of the breed has changed in the last 25 years or so,a marked reduction in size,a reduction in coloration,and more importantly a softening of their character.Time was when one could buy a springer from virtually any breeder and it was a given that your dog would hunt all day long and would face heavy cover if the occasion demanded,sadly this is no longer the case,and its now a struggle to find a good hunting springer here in Ireland.Who or what is responsible?The general concensus is field trialling.Having spoken to many spaniel people they all point the finger of blame in this direction.Whether or not this is the case is somewhat of a moot point,the important point now is to determine if it is too late to reverse this trend.I'm no expert on breeding or genetics and I would be loath to propose any solutions,maybe someone out there would be knowledgeable enough to.I now have what I consider to be four good dogs in my kennel after putting around thirty through my hands in the last three years.Some of these rejects were bred from some of the top trialling dogs in the country,further proof if any were needed that this problem is a reality.Your thoughts on this issue would be appreciated.
Given the abundance of free shooting I've heard about in Ireland, one would think those that know their oats would be getting the best out of the available genetics. From what I've seen there is nothing that tests a good bird dog more than bucketloads of good rough shooting.
Givendale Springers wrote:I have read all the posts on this issue with interest and can say that there are bits of truth in everyone but the fact does remain that there are now 3 separate types of spaniel show / trial and working but everyone has missed the point of where everything has gone wrong over the last 10 to 15 years , field trials used to be a showcase for top class kennels and bloodlines and the type of spaniel everyone aspired to own and breed but as always once we had invented the wheel we kept going and ruined the whole thing in the pursuit of entertainment , money and fame which is ok if everyone is honest as to the reality of the situation, if the three types of dog had stayed separate there would not have been a problem but they didn't only one stayed separate the show type spaniel , the wastage from the breeding of fieldtrial dogs has nearly wiped out the working spaniel , if you know spaniels you will know what I mean but I shall explain it any way as the trials became more about a 20 minute dash around the rhododendrons and a lucrative spectator sport and the shape of the trial dog had changed to the modern bred sleeker lighter faster tail swishing spaniel, everyone wanted one and thought if they used a made up ftw or ftch as a stud to their trial bitch they would be guaranteed success and fame but they weren't because in breeding ( line breeding ) has taken an enormous toll on the spaniel along with health issues , we have bred away natural ability , intelligence , stamina and hunting drive out of 90 % of the spaniels bred to trial and so the " wastage " and think of it out of a litter of 9 pups 1 being good the other 8 useless all flood the spaniel population and over time water down the rough shooting , hard hunting dogs into mediocre trialing /working spaniels stuck somewhere in the middle being neither one or the other and not possessing any of the sought after talents or qualities of either type of springer , luckily there are still pockets of true working spaniels still to be found mostly on the West Coast of Ireland , Woodcock dogs hunting the hardest of cover that most people can't imagine a spaniel going into and I know that for a fact as I lived in Yorkshire and worked as a gamekeeper for a good few years but never saw cover like we have in Co Leitrim where I have lived for many years now and hunt for woodcock every season over true working spaniels that are fast stylish ,powerful , intelligent full of natural ability and immeasurable hunting drive who hunt for scent not on it and never loose interest , they hunt at an incredible pace flushing woodcock at speed from the thickest of cover and retrieve woodcock from places you would think no dog could enter and old friend over with me from the UK could not believe his eyes when he shot a flushed woodcock into the middle of the thickest briar bed you could imagine and one the dogs crawled 30 yards literally on his belly under the briars and successfully retrieved the woodcock , he thought the whole experience of his 5 day stay to be the most exciting shooting he had ever experienced in his life and was in aw of the dogs that provided our days entertainment.
These type of spaniels have a powerful back side that drives them on, a broad powerful chest and a frame covered in muscle which gives them their stamina which I have found to be 3 to 4 times that of a modern field trial dog they are not big dogs but medium sized, and are easy to train as they have so much intelligence and enthusiasm to hunt and retrieve , they can be taught to handle out but I find its a waste of time as their natural ability means they need no help from me to find a downed bird and I personally think handling out is more showmanship for the spectator at the field trial then a useful interference to a spaniel that will find the bird faster if I leave them to use the gifts god gave them.
Finally the only negative point to this the present situation is that even though these great dogs still exist over many years fewer and fewer were IKC registered which leaves a very small no of kennel club registered class working dogs and I know of only a couple of registered prefixes breeding hard hunting class kennel club registered dogs I do know though without a shadow of any doubt that their demand over the last 5 years has grown to such a point that it can't be satisfied and I know this because all my pups are ordered a year before they are even conceived and now go all over the world , and I feel incredibly proud and lucky to have followed my vision and dreams by using stockmanship which was taught to me by my late father to select and breed dogs on looks , natural ability , parents natural ability no modern field trial breeding and no line breeding and when we have a litter of 9 pups we get 9 outstanding gundogs and the incredibly funny thing is that this last year quite a few pups have gone to field trial homes and new era of trial men who are sick of the present situation and are hoping to turn the tide before its to late and from reports back they are immensely impressed with their pups and promising outstanding success for the future which will make me smile from both sides of the fence.
Good points. Can be said for a few other breeds as well. I have always maintained that faultless mediocrity can win field trials and one should be careful looking for hunting dogs at a field trial unless you know your dogs and you're there for the early rounds.
Supply and demand, if there is call for bigger, stronger (?) harder dogs they will come to the fore eventually and I do think there is the beginnings of a trend toward that even in trial breeding.
As regards trial dogs, them being the ruination of the breed and the root of all evil I can't agree. A trial dog that won't hunt the thickest of cover or perform whatever is asked of it won't be the cream of the crop. They don't hunt for long but put a trial dog into the shooting field and it will be conditioned to a full days shooting shortly after it is exposed to it, frankly trial dogs are not IMO particularly fit. They go like stink from the off but not for long in the context of a whole day. They are kept light and fast to win trials, not to have body mass to endure a full day but like any athlete, changes in diet, exercise regime and discipline will see a different outcome. And like many athletes the good will shine in whatever arena they are asked to perform, the shite will always be shite, and one man's meat will always be another man's poison.
