I do. Nothing wrong with that method and if it works for him then carry on with it
delivery issues
Re: delivery issues
My apologies if I have offended anyone it was not my intention. My post was badly written.
My only observation was that in my opinion the majority of folk new to the game wish to use, for want of a better expression, more modern less physical less force orientated methods and that surely forcing a dog to do something is not conducive to a reliable "offered" behaviour or to a particularly happy bond between handler and dog.
I may be totally wrong and obviously I cannot speak for other novices but that is the impression that I get from those similar to myself that I have met.
Again I can but apologize for a very poorly written initial post it did not read in the way that I intended it too and I have asked the mods to edited accordingly.
My only observation was that in my opinion the majority of folk new to the game wish to use, for want of a better expression, more modern less physical less force orientated methods and that surely forcing a dog to do something is not conducive to a reliable "offered" behaviour or to a particularly happy bond between handler and dog.
I may be totally wrong and obviously I cannot speak for other novices but that is the impression that I get from those similar to myself that I have met.
Again I can but apologize for a very poorly written initial post it did not read in the way that I intended it too and I have asked the mods to edited accordingly.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.
Re: delivery issues
I'd didn't see any force or physical handling. Opening a dogs mouth to put a dummy in and then praising it is something all will have done from time to time.
Re: delivery issues
I think it was just the table and being tethered so it had no choice in the matter that I find hard to accept not that the particular vid in question showed any actual physical force. Any reference to physical force I may have made was a general statement of "similar" methods (or that is what I intended if I had not worded it so badly) i prefer my bitch to offer whatever I want through capturing and the like.
Ps
I have never needed to force anything into her mouth but grabbed socks, tea towels etc out of it
Ps
I have never needed to force anything into her mouth but grabbed socks, tea towels etc out of it
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.
Re: delivery issues
I do hope the OP managed to get some good tips and help from this thread before it wandered off into the wide blue yonder. 
In life, it is important to know when to stop arguing with people and simply let them be wrong.
Re: delivery issues
Haven't been on here for ages but had a quick look at the video and this is very similar to the method I use to teach hold. I don't put the dog on a table - but can't see anything wrong in doing that. Dog looks relaxed and perfectly happy.
Miff
'pound for pound you get more of everything with a cocker'
'pound for pound you get more of everything with a cocker'
Re: delivery issues
http://www.shootinguk.co.uk/gundogs/tra ... ummy-13279
http://totallygundogs.com/grade-two-gun ... -delivery/
http://totallygundogs.com/grade-two-gun ... -delivery/
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.
-
CockerCanuck
- Member
- Posts: 1372
- Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:56 pm
- Dogs: Fergal, Hamish, Ceilidh
- Location: SW Ontario, Canada
Re: delivery issues
Well IPS is back and things have come back to life. all is well with the world! Welcome back IPS good to see you back.
I watched the video in question and find myself kind of ambivalent about it. "Force Fetch" training is pretty common here, particularly amongst the Retriever Test/Trial crowd. It is almost considered routine basic training and believe me the methods shown in this video are not nearly as harsh or rigorous as those employed by many "professional" trainers. It is my belief they do this because the demanding training required now to finish a field trial quality retriever requires repetition of so many thousands of retrieves that you can't count on the dog continuing to do it just because they like it. It is really a "bootcamp" type experience for the dog who learns there are things in which he just has no choice. However, I have also observed Labradors enthusiastically jump up on the forcing table. As tough as it is they still crave human attention and training more than anything else.
In full disclosure I have used this method (almost exactly like the video) on one ESS and one Lab (both males) who I just could not get good deliveries from through softer more traditional methods. It worked 100%. However, I have trained many more dogs, including my current Cocker and Lab, without feeling the need to use it. The number of repetitions of retrieves required to get a dog to my personal standard of a gundog is not so intense that 90% of the time the dogs inborn instinct and enthusiasm to retrieve is all that is required. However, I can't say I would not use it again if faced with a difficult dog. I know it works. However, I choose not to unless necessary not so much because it feels cruel to me. These things are very subjective but to me it is strict and demanding but well short of cruel. However, it is also tedious and not much fun for either the dog or trainer hence I will go there with some reluctance.
I watched the video in question and find myself kind of ambivalent about it. "Force Fetch" training is pretty common here, particularly amongst the Retriever Test/Trial crowd. It is almost considered routine basic training and believe me the methods shown in this video are not nearly as harsh or rigorous as those employed by many "professional" trainers. It is my belief they do this because the demanding training required now to finish a field trial quality retriever requires repetition of so many thousands of retrieves that you can't count on the dog continuing to do it just because they like it. It is really a "bootcamp" type experience for the dog who learns there are things in which he just has no choice. However, I have also observed Labradors enthusiastically jump up on the forcing table. As tough as it is they still crave human attention and training more than anything else.
In full disclosure I have used this method (almost exactly like the video) on one ESS and one Lab (both males) who I just could not get good deliveries from through softer more traditional methods. It worked 100%. However, I have trained many more dogs, including my current Cocker and Lab, without feeling the need to use it. The number of repetitions of retrieves required to get a dog to my personal standard of a gundog is not so intense that 90% of the time the dogs inborn instinct and enthusiasm to retrieve is all that is required. However, I can't say I would not use it again if faced with a difficult dog. I know it works. However, I choose not to unless necessary not so much because it feels cruel to me. These things are very subjective but to me it is strict and demanding but well short of cruel. However, it is also tedious and not much fun for either the dog or trainer hence I will go there with some reluctance.
I'm suspicious of people who don't like dogs, but I trust a dog when it doesn't like a person. - Bill Murray
Re: delivery issues
I appreciate your honesty CC .
I knew of these methods but assumed naïvely that it wasn't common in the UK, it seems to me to be a "short cut" or "fast track" method (no offence intended) and it doesn't sit well with me.
I knew of these methods but assumed naïvely that it wasn't common in the UK, it seems to me to be a "short cut" or "fast track" method (no offence intended) and it doesn't sit well with me.
Muddling along in the hope that one day it starts to make sense.