Taking advantage of prey drive

[leeky]

I was wondering if anyone has read any of Kevin Behan's books - "your dog is your mirror" and "natural dog training"?

After being put off by the name and the cover photo of "Your dog is your mirror" i finally gave in because i was interested in reading a book that argues against pack hierarchy and dominance as i dont believe they're the basis of how dogs behave with humans. The main theme of the book is really about dogs beings conduits of our emotions ( stay with me here, the wording can be a little bit "out there") and how much training (and the dog's emotional balance) is based on how we approach and utilise their prey drive, ie redirecting the prey drive when they want to lunge at a passing car for instance I've got to say, once i got past some of the language a lot of it really made sense and felt right, to me anyway.

I've managed (over 2 days) to get a pretty steady offlead heel going, in the garden and at the river walk, it even worked whilst we were approaching a family with a dog coming towards us on the 1 metre wide path - i gave her the ok to approach the dog seeing as he was approaching us offlead. The main thing that has changed between now and my previous attempt to get her to heel off lead is how i'm thinking about the process and my intention to reward and release her at a specific spot on the path

I always felt there was something that didnt fit with the whole dominance and submission theory, and i know it's becoming widely discounted now. But i did always subconsciously revert back to sounding/acting more authoritative with certain areas of training but with little success, the only thing i could put my finger on was that i would behave that way when i wasnt necessarily in the mood for training and just going through the motions.

Edited to add - i just searched and realised that this guy was briefly discussed on here last year - he appears to have made the same impression on others ie a bit of a weirdo in some respects but definately onto something

[vicky payne]

Dominance in dogs is an old hat and largely debunked theory. I don't have time to explain today but try Dominance in Dogs Fact or Fiction by Barry Eason if you are interested.
In short...wolves don't really display the sort of pack dominance on which dominance theory was based (flawed observations of captive wolves) and dogs are not wolves anyway! But they do all have modified wolf predatory motor paterns and I these which make a collie herd and a retriever retrieve so training based on a dogs 'prey drive' makes a lot of sense.
I haven't read these books, but they sound interesting and maybe I'll give them a go. One can never stop learning!

[Wendy M]

Vicky, we appear to have exactly the same books on our book shelves!!

Dominance: Fact or Fiction by Barry Eason is a very readable little book that lays out the evidence against dominance theory in domestic dogs and summarises the main points clearly and concisely.

I haven't read the books you speak of either Leeky, but they sound interesting.

It is easy to get frustrated with our dogs at times, (as it is our kids, today being one of those days with my two boys!... ) but if we take a step back and see things from their point of view, and think "Ok, why are you not doing what I want? and how can I help you understand better and allow you to "want" to do what I want you to do?"

We don't need to be "dominant" to live with dogs, but because we are in control of (most) of the things they need and like (resources) we are able to "take advantage" of these to set rules and boundaries which allows us to live together as a social group.

Wendy

P.s Glad your making headway on the heeling front!

[leeky]

Thank you both! Think i'll get a wee copy that Barry Eason book you both recommend.

I think there sometimes room for an element of dominance in having a dog (not just training) because we are the providers of pretty much everything for them, but using it as a training "tool" to me just seems like working against the dog as opposed to working with them, and that's what the Kevin Behan book seems to be addressing, working with the dog. It definately is an interesting read even if you come away completely disagreeing with it

Wendy, just caught your post - completely agree with what you're saying about taking advantage so that we can live with them. Trying to use her prey drive for teaching the off lead heel - hopefully will be able to transfer it to on-lead walks

[Allyson]

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/caninedominance
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die
http://www.clickersolutions.com/article ... inance.htm
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ ... tement.pdf
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2297
http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/artic ... 08)00115-9#
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 112711.htm
http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html

[Allyson]

To view the dominance theory in context you have to ask yourself where it originated.

Konrad Lorenz, a Nazi, who based all his "science" on the observations of his own mongrels.

[Wendy M]

have just been having a search on-line about Kevin Behan and Natural Dog Training. I found this review: http://www.kateconnick.com/library/behandog.html
It's only one persons review and obviously not a substitute for reading the book, But, It appears to be a book based on learning theory, but 'packaged' differently so that it will appeal to a certain 'market'.

ANYTHING that your dog likes doing can be used to reinforce another behaviour.

Gundog training in particular takes advantage of the prey/hunting drive, so nothing new there.

having an understanding of what "drives" your dog is crucial to training, but putting colourful packaging around learning theory just detracts from the facts IMO!

However, I may still try to get a copy to see for myself what he has to say.

Wendy

[leeky]

Thanks for all the links

I havent read any reviews of "Natural Dog Training" yet and am just about to finish his other book. What i did like about it was the use of redirecting the dog's prey drive in everyday situations where there may be issues of lack of general obedience and possible negative associations ie Keely lunging as (some) cars pass. Many books and a couple of trainers i have spoke to suggest focussing more on general obedience, focus and desensitization, which does make sense and to me is an important part of training and socialising the dog in the first place, those approaches i'm sure do work but maybe dont necessarily address the source of the problem.

The example in the book suggests harnessing the prey drive in that situation to get the dogs attention by introducing alternative "prey" and work on making that prey higher value than the passing car. Dont get me wrong, there was more to it than that, and i fear the execution will be more problematic than it sounds. His approach started with teaching the dog "push-of-war" to encourage it to focus on him and what he had, then he introduced a toy for the dog to transfer it's focus onto, then he introduced THAT process to the environment where the dog was lunging at vehicles. The outcome i believe is meant to be that the vehicles become a background that the associates with something more pleasurable ie focussing on and interacting with him.

[Allyson]

Many of us have high prey drive dogs and many of us redirect that prey drive on to other things ie instead of not allowing a dog to chase, nature abhors a vacuum so you provide something TO chase eg a frisbee or a ball instead of something with fur, feathers, wool, tyres etc.

Both David Ryan

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-s ... g-chasing/

and Clarissa von Reinhardt have written good books on it.

Stop! How to control predatory Chasing in Dogs
by David Ryan

Chase! Managing Your Dog's Predatory Instincts
By Clarissa Von Reinhardt

[leeky]

Thanks, i'll have a look at those too. I think i'm about to because amazon's number 1 customer