GRR!!OPERANT!!TREATS!!SIT!!STAY!!DELIVERY!!ETC?

[Polmaise]

Recently,reading a few threads,It became obvious(to me) that almost everyone was actually 'agreeing', but would not agree with each other?

At the weekend I had a 'Yellow dog', in for Training.
The History,was 'It chewed the dummy', when recall was achieved it ran in circles', it showed 'agressive behaviour(posessive) when working with other dogs,It 'ran in on shot', and would not stop on whistle ,after a 'seen dummy'.

The attachment was made as a 'Training video', showing the mistakes made by both the dog ,and the handler???
Can you spot them???
It is easy ,as humans to 'edit', and correct 'text',or language,especially through 'technology',and quote others ?
In practice ,'real life', we have to draw on the individual situation at that moment in time?
(that would be experience,imo)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Taw9urjbYwE

[Judy]

The yellow lab looked to me like he was quite soft which maybe has been the cause of his previous 'problems'? That "I don't know why you're having a go at me so I'll faff about" syndrome we all come across sooner or later. Once he was with a quiet handler he was obviously OK. As you say the situation and the individual dog are what matters at any given point in time. Timing and reading the dog are what separates the men from the boys. Dunno what that make su sgirls then maybe perfect?

Mistakes? What mistakes? I saw a few minor things but nothing too stressful. Except it reminded me that I should do more training with the dogs together before the season. OK I should do more training full stop!

Judy

[trekmoor]

Hi Robert, that was an interesting clip. As you well know it is very easy to pick holes in another handlers work - I could do it to you - you could do it to me.

I will confine my comments to something that I consider to be a very easy handling fault to correct but it is one that a great many handlers make. I refer to the habit you have of clicking your fingers when sending a dog from your side. That habit can cost you a trial win - it can get you put out of a trial if one of the other handlers uses it too. I saw that happen in a lab trial . There were several birds down and the judges called in another dog. A dog already sitting under judges orders heard the walking handler just called in click his fingers as he walked behind him . For the dog walking at heel the click meant "heel" but for the dog sitting in line it meant "fetch." It went for the bird and was put out.

I gave up using a finger click as part of a retrieve command on the spot ! Dogs don't seem to differentiate between one mans finger click and anothers.

Wullie

[Polmaise]

The yellow lab looked to me like he was quite soft which maybe has been the cause of his previous 'problems'? That "I don't know why you're having a go at me so I'll faff about" syndrome we all come across sooner or later. Once he was with a quiet handler he was obviously OK. As you say the situation and the individual dog are what matters at any given point in time. Timing and reading the dog are what separates the men from the boys. Dunno what that make su sgirls then maybe perfect?

Mistakes? What mistakes? I saw a few minor things but nothing too stressful. Except it reminded me that I should do more training with the dogs together before the season. OK I should do more training full stop!

Judy

The Yellow lab ,is a 'Bitch', and believe me it is a 'Hard' dog,not 'soft', I would NEVER put a soft dog into the submissive position!?
Like I said, sometimes / we ,as humans have the luxury,of comments/text/phrases ,to influence others,or 'demonstrate',our knowledge through words,or opinions? and through 'forums', it is dificult for others to get the "real picture", as they do not have all the "facts" 'shown to them', therefore 'confusion ,and missunderstanding ,can be involved? (just like the dog(s)) I was handling in the video?

Mistakes!!
I made a few mistakes !! which led to the dog 'missunderstanding the action or behaviour I was trying to achieve', they may be 'minor' to some?, because, they were corrected?, but would it not be better to 'require NO correction'?

On

[Polmaise]

Hi Robert, that was an interesting clip. As you well know it is very easy to pick holes in another handlers work - I could do it to you - you could do it to me.

I will confine my comments to something that I consider to be a very easy handling fault to correct but it is one that a great many handlers make. I refer to the habit you have of clicking your fingers when sending a dog from your side. That habit can cost you a trial win - it can get you put out of a trial if one of the other handlers uses it too. I saw that happen in a lab trial . There were several birds down and the judges called in another dog. A dog already sitting under judges orders heard the walking handler just called in click his fingers as he walked behind him . For the dog walking at heel the click meant "heel" but for the dog sitting in line it meant "fetch." It went for the bird and was put out.

I gave up using a finger click as part of a retrieve command on the spot ! Dogs don't seem to differentiate between one mans finger click and anothers.

Wullie

Aye Wullie!!
You should know me by now Any comment from you is taken with 'respect'
The 'click I use', if conditioned/, works just the same as any other 'trigger', such as 'back' get on 'fetch etc? (One mans back, is the same as any other?)
How come 'my two never moved', when the click was given to the 'Yellow Dog'? Yet the 'Yellow dog moved when I used the click', with one of mine?
Good point however,and I welcome more/, as the video,was set up 'as a training aid for Handlers?

[Polmaise]

Hi Robert, that was an interesting clip. As you well know it is very easy to pick holes in another handlers work - I could do it to you - you could do it to me.

I will confine my comments to something that I consider to be a very easy handling fault to correct but it is one that a great many handlers make. I refer to the habit you have of clicking your fingers when sending a dog from your side. That habit can cost you a trial win - it can get you put out of a trial if one of the other handlers uses it too. I saw that happen in a lab trial . There were several birds down and the judges called in another dog. A dog already sitting under judges orders heard the walking handler just called in click his fingers as he walked behind him . For the dog walking at heel the click meant "heel" but for the dog sitting in line it meant "fetch." It went for the bird and was put out.

I gave up using a finger click as part of a retrieve command on the spot ! Dogs don't seem to differentiate between one mans finger click and anothers.

Wullie

Aye Wullie!!
You should know me by now Any comment from you is taken with 'respect'
The 'click I use', if conditioned/, works just the same as any other 'trigger', such as 'back' get on 'fetch etc? (One mans back, is the same as any other?)
How come 'my two never moved', when the click was given to the 'Yellow Dog'? Yet the 'Yellow dog moved when I used the click', with one of mine?
Good point however,and I welcome more/, as the video,was set up 'as a training aid for Handlers?

I should add Wullie!!....When I used the command 'back', to the yellow dog,on the retrieve thrown behind!, she 'did not respond'??, I further used a command"Go Back", which made the Yellow dog do the desired affect?, but also made the Spaniel, a FTW 'RUN IN'????? Yet ,that same spaniel never 'runs in , when the 'click is used on another dog???,yet she always 'casts off on a click!!sort of blows away the click theory?

[Rookie]

Good point however,and I welcome more/, as the video,was set up 'as a training aid for Handlers?

and I would like to thank you for taking the time to make it. There is absolutely nothing I can teach any of you, and I obviously have no knowledge of any of the dogs in the clip but there was one thing I suddenly noticed when it was nearing it's end. The two labradors names are similar sounding. Is it possible that they are picking up on the vowel sound and that was the trigger that caused them to run in on each others retrieves when they did?

[Polmaise]

Good point however,and I welcome more/, as the video,was set up 'as a training aid for Handlers?

and I would like to thank you for taking the time to make it. There is absolutely nothing I can teach any of you, and I obviously have no knowledge of any of the dogs in the clip but there was one thing I suddenly noticed when it was nearing it's end. The two labradors names are similar sounding. Is it possible that they are picking up on the vowel sound and that was the trigger that caused them to run in on each others retrieves when they did?

Hi Rookie, I can only apologise for any 'sound quality', the two Labs names are 'Fern'(Yellow dog) 'Bella'(Black dog), 'Tweed'(Spaniel),as all three have different 'vowel', and sound for name'that is why these two of my dogs were chosen',for 'Training THIS yellow dog!

The thread,and clip, was in no way posted to ask for each other,to 'teach each other'? but as my original post says, merely a tool, to "understand each others" gundog training?, and learn 'From each other'?
We are not perfect?(that includes me 'and wullie )
The mistakes are in the first clip(part1) one learns by 'spotting them'?? not by being 'told about them

[trekmoor]

Do you think Robert that the reason only the dog that was meant to retrieve actually did go for the "click" was because the other two dogs were not beside you in the proper "send" position therefor - to the dogs mind they had only received part of the retrieve command sequence. They only got the click - the rest of the normal retrieve sequence was missing so those dogs did not go ?

With regard to the part of the clip where the spaniel returned with its retrieve and you then sent the lab by name for a dummy out behind it I felt that the two dogs responded for the following reason.

You appeared on the clip to have given your arm signal to "fetch" just an instant before you said the name of the dog that was to make the retrieve.
Given that they were both very keen dogs and that normally any one of those two dogs would respond to an arm signal only from you if being handled at distance, it would not be surprising if both dogs felt that the arm signal was meant for it and responded by "going." Both of those dogs were sitting at a distance from you and facing you - much the same as would be the case had you stopped either one at distance then redirected it.
To be honest, I felt that both dogs "going" was more of a handler error than a canine error.

I felt that the dogs positions in relation to you plus some possible confusion over whether you gave a particular dogs name after the arm signal ,just by a fraction of a second caused the two dogs to "go."

As I said earlier it is easy to sit here in an armchair and critiscise but we all do similar things from time to time . I got picked up on a handling fault of mine a couple of months ago by a watchful bystander . I hadn't realised I had developed that fault and I am pleased the man came forward and pointed it out

Wullie

[Polmaise]

Do you think Robert that the reason only the dog that was meant to retrieve actually did go for the "click" was because the other two dogs were not beside you in the proper "send" position therefor - to the dogs mind they had only received part of the retrieve command sequence. They only got the click - the rest of the normal retrieve sequence was missing so those dogs did not go ?

YES! Wullie,The other two dogs were conditioned to the behaviour when working with other dogs,that if they were placed in the 'sit stayand not beside me 'it meant they were not involved,and to wait there turn.

With regard to the part of the clip where the spaniel returned with its retrieve and you then sent the lab by name for a dummy out behind it I felt that the two dogs responded for the following reason.

You appeared on the clip to have given your arm signal to "fetch" just an instant before you said the name of the dog that was to make the retrieve.
Given that they were both very keen dogs and that normally any one of those two dogs would respond to an arm signal only from you if being handled at distance, it would not be surprising if both dogs felt that the arm signal was meant for it and responded by "going." Both of those dogs were sitting at a distance from you and facing you - much the same as would be the case had you stopped either one at distance then redirected it.
To be honest, I felt that both dogs "going" was more of a handler error than a canine error.

Absolutely correct ,well spotted!!! this was one of the 'intentional errors', put into the video clip,to show the fact that 'handler consistancy',is paramount!! sometimes we 'why our dog has done a certain action', and 'search',for a 'magical training technique'?, when more often it is due to our mistakes with the basics!

I felt that the dogs positions in relation to you plus some possible confusion over whether you gave a particular dogs name after the arm signal ,just by a fraction of a second caused the two dogs to "go."

Spot on again Wullie, this wasnt an intentional eror!,this was actual Handler error. we must be even more Exact',when working multiple dogs.

As I said earlier it is easy to sit here in an armchair and critiscise but we all do similar things from time to time . I got picked up on a handling fault of mine a couple of months ago by a watchful bystander . I hadn't realised I had developed that fault and I am pleased the man came forward and pointed it out
It is how we learn?,and is the reason for making the clip? cheers Wullie
Wullie