When is enough enough ?

[Rothievale]

Force *cough, cough* Fetch. *cough*

Exactly. Ditch the retrieving and teach hold it (I hate the terminology 'force fetch', reverse everything. I've had several in for training like this and haven't done any retrieving with them from the moment they came in till a week before they left. If you teach hold and have your dog sat in front of you with the dummy in its mouth and call it quietly in I can guarantee the whole game/possession thing will go out the window. Coupled with practising 100% recall at all times in all situations. Unless you have that you definitely won't get it with a dummy in its mouth. Lots of repetition, patience and absolute discipline on your part NOT to do any retrieving whatsoever until you can put the dummy in its mouth, walk away and call it quietly in. I'm sure there's a thread somewhere about how to teach hold it.

[Naj]

I suggested the same approach this morning, Helen, but Fenboy didn't seem to pick up on it so presumably wasn't very impressed. Seems like a long time ago.

Naj

[Judy]

Its not an instant solution...

The only time there is an instant solution to a problem is when you stop it happening the very first time the dog goes wrong. If you allow the dog to continue to get it "wrong" for any length of time than it will take as long if not longer to get it right.

Megsdad hit the nail on the head, its all about play, if the dog thinks its all a game you will get a responsive dog if you are continually trying different things as you mentioned here;

I realise what ever path I take it will need sticking at but I have received as usual several differing opinions of the way forward and I would like to satisfy my own mind that a particular idea or suggestion has merit and a chance of achieving success before I chuck all my eggs in that basket .

You will just confuse the dog further and, possibly, yourself. Only you know the dog, read all the helpful advice you have had, think about it and choose the path you think will best suit the dog then stick with it. Its a problem millions of dogs have had and millions of owners have resolved, its nothing new. I feel like saying bond with the dog and he will respond but you said you didn't want to hear that again!

I'll shut up now, you've had six pages of good advice, think on it and take whichever part you think is best.

[dbrw1]

My 18 month old was doing the same thing. So put the dummy's away for a while. Went back to playing with a ball of which she would then bring back to my hand so she can play again. Went out for a bit of training session with the dummy's a couple of weeks later and mixed it up a bit. A bit of ball throwing and every now and then a proper dummy retrieve. All of which were back to my hand. Then a bit of ball throwing then a bit of water work with the dummy's etc.

Might be worth a try.
I feel your pain!

[LJR]

My daughter was given an 18 month old spaniel that would not retrieve (or hunt for that matter).

She taught it to hold whilst sat watching the TV every evening, EVERY evening for weeks and weeks before progressing. Now just over a year on he is good enough that he could be used for picking up, however any anxiety shows in his delivery. I am a firm believer that most faults - 99% the fault of the handler - can be improved/fixed, it's about how much you want it, and how much time and patience you have. I do realise I only have experience with spaniels and none whatsoever with labs

My daughter has never ever reprimanded her dog for a rubbish retrieve or delivery, however she has always highly praised a good one, simples

[Michelleo]

Having 'put up with' constant dropped dummies from my 4 year ESS I finally bit the bullet and thought enough is enough. She has no problem parading a chew around the house for hours in front of the other 3 dogs so she can damn well hold a dummy to deliver to hand. It took me six weeks on daily hunting up with 10 tennis balls out, letting her pick a ball then walking away from her, calling her into heel and continue walking whilst saying 'hold' and then finally asking for a sit at heel before slowly taking the dummy with a 'Dead' command before she finally delivered to hand. This developed into a pick - heel - hold - sit & hold- me in front - sit & hold -step in/step off - sit & hold - dead. This was 2 weeks ago and I can happily report that she will now deliver 99% to hand whatever dummy/ball/toy I send her for. It took me 3 years to realise that the answer was simple….hold until I tell you otherwise! I lost 3 years of competition fun just because I wasn't willing to put that extra hard work in and 'expect' the behaviour I wanted.

I have learnt a huge lesson with this dog and will not repeat with any other…….if you really have the relationship with the dog you get there eventually but it will take consistent, focussed, determined work to show your dog what you expect 100% of the time.

This dog is hard hunting, dominant dog that I allowed to fool me into believing she just couldn't do that final delivery as I wanted - all it took was a determination and persistence by me to match her will to drop the dummy to get it sent out again.

If there's a will there's a way!

[fenboy]

I suggested the same approach this morning, Helen, but Fenboy didn't seem to pick up on it so presumably wasn't very impressed. Seems like a long time ago.

Naj

Naj
I picked up on much of what you said but at the end of the day I cannot take on board every single piece of advice from everyone who has offered it .
I did mention a good few posts back the route I have decided to take.

What I have decided to do is as follows .

All his food for now will be used as reward ( this being his main motivator ) it will be given for two things only .

1/ A instant response to the recall.

2/ Picking a dummy up at my feet and holding it until I ask him to give me it .

I intend to very gradually increase the distance between myself and the dummy so he needs to bring it towards me further to get his reward.
He will be getting no retrieves other than the water retrieves which are much easier to control (as you suggested ) once he is reliably bringing the dummy a short distance , I will also start to back further away from his water retrieve .

He has all ready had two sessions of this which have been dare I say it, very successful , these have only been in the garden so there is not a great deal to distract him , once he has had longer at it I will try the same in a area that has more scent / distraction .

Thoughts on this are welcome

[Nonehpets]

Have you carefully thought through what you will do if he does a lap with the dummy?

Obviously you don't want to reward any running around but you also do want to reward the actual hold in front of you if that follows his lap. This will be the test of your training method that you do not let even a smidgen of frustration show and that you have planned how to deal with his behaviour.

Everyone is different ... I would feign ignoring the dog - going as far to turn and look very pointedly and animatedly at anything other than him returning my attention to enthusiastically praise him when he has resumed the right behaviour; others would use a well timed "no". You have to decide on your method and then be prepared to put it into play.

Also plan in advance how much lee way you will allow on first moving to a new more distracting location - this will help you to quickly take a backstep if you move on too quickly thinking he has made better progress.

Cathy

[fenboy]

Have you carefully thought through what you will do if he does a lap with the dummy?

Obviously you don't want to reward any running around but you also do want to reward the actual hold in front of you if that follows his lap. This will be the test of your training method that you do not let even a smidgen of frustration show and that you have planned how to deal with his behaviour.

Everyone is different ... I would feign ignoring the dog - going as far to turn and look very pointedly and animatedly at anything other than him returning my attention to enthusiastically praise him when he has resumed the right behaviour; others would use a well timed "no". You have to decide on your method and then be prepared to put it into play.

Also plan in advance how much lee way you will allow on first moving to a new more distracting location - this will help you to quickly take a backstep if you move on too quickly thinking he has made better progress.

Cathy

The running laps with the dummy has gone on for quite some time now , I quickly learned that shouting no only had the effect of him increasing speed , as did taking a step toward him .
Therefore my standard practice has been to ignore him , he has never , ever been told off in anyway once he has returned a dummy to me and I have always remained calm with him (despite feeling like pulling his lugs off )

[Andrew]

is the dog the same with a collar on?